General Music Chat

They pay the preacher at the church I rarely frequent, double what a good union job pays.

Yod while I don't agree with you on music in the church and pay, I quit playing in the church,
when I had to start sitting on the front row, prepared to be on stage in 3 seconds ready to go.
We were running a show with 2 big video screens, soundman in the balcony 8 piece band with
choir. It started to become a elaborate production, and I could no longer sit with my family
during church, but had to be on the green room, ready to move to the front row, then to the
stage. And I'm paying them 10 bucks for this? I quit, and quit going to church, to social.

They pay the preacher at the church I rarely frequent, double what a good union job pays.

Yod while I don't agree with you on music in the church and pay, I quit playing in the church,
when I had to start sitting on the front row, prepared to be on stage in 3 seconds ready to go.
We were running a show with 2 big video screens, soundman in the balcony 8 piece band with
choir. It started to become a elaborate production, and I could no longer sit with my family
during church, but had to be on the green room, ready to move to the front row, then to the
stage. And I'm paying them 10 bucks for this? I quit, and quit going to church, to social.

What were you paying $10 for? That is exactly the kind of place who should be paying the musicians.

99% of the places I play are under 100 people. Perhaps 75% are under 50 people, and I will go for an offering and a room anywhere in the world. That led me to play at the Parliament of Switzerland today in Bern. Taking a train to Interlocken for my "reward" tomorrow.

I could care less what the Israelites were obliged to do. That was a theocracy and this is not.

Be careful of arrogance towards the natural branches. The ONLY places where offerings are mentioned after the Temple were for the poor saints of Jerusalem. Never for a preacher or a building. You have a financial debt to the Israelites who gave you the gospel, according to Romans 16:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. How often does your preacher mention that?

So there are some portions of the Word that don't matter to you? He give every word for our instruction. Ignore it at your peril. In this particular case, He specifically set the pattern in the Torah and it is repeated THREE times in the scriptures. But you know better than God or the Apostles?

Deuteronomy 25:4 Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.

1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

1 Timothy 5:18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

And in fact, Israelites weren't obliged to tithe at all. Check the Law....there is NO PENALTY whatsoever to those who didn't tithe. It was just known and accepted that you were blessed if you did, and cursed if you didn't.

Nothing has changed there, bro.

I did however mis-speak when I wrote that 'modern Christians are supposed to tithe.' (a typo) We are not under that obligation though most of us prefer to do that or more.

I knew what you meant. I give upwards of 30% in a year, much of it isn't in cash form.

My church is not one of those hog pens where rich preachers ride around in limousines and private jets. Only the pastors (and teachers if we have a school) get paid and not much. When I was working I made twice what our pastors make, yet who was performing the more important service?

Guess that depends on what your job was. Many jobs are more important than teaching christian theology.

I'm astonished it annoys you that musicians would work for free in the church. In Romans we are reminded that our 'good works were stored up for us from before the beginning of time.' Each according to his particular talents eh? This is an honor, not an obligation and it surely is not a 'job.'

Obviously you haven't been listening because I've never said anything about being annoyed by what the musician does.

What I am saying is that church IS a business....and they manipulate people for free labor in the name of God. No other business would get away with it.

You want to make the case that church isn't a business? Show me one that either (a) doesn't take an offering at all or (b) gives 100% of that offering away to the poor and needy. That is the only biblical model mentioned in the Newer Covenant....small house meetings. No other model is mentioned except the Temple/Tabernacle. Anything else is man's model. Not a problem if they aren't stingy....but it is man's model.

When my health permitted I was playing in two bands and the commercial side was in fact a job. The church? Never.

And if the "church" followed the same biblical model they use to manipulate tithes from people, you wouldn't have to work 3 jobs.

Your church doesn't pass a plate or in any way compel people to give? They never do a sermon about giving before the offering? OK....great. I'm not talking about yours specifically.....just the other 98%

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The Wisconsin Lutheran Synod does indeed 'pass the plate' and while the pastors don't enjoy doing it they occasionally preach on giving. This is for the congregation's on welfare because we are enjoined to be 'cheerful givers' by scripture and need to be reminded periodically.

I wonder what jobs are more important than teaching Christian doctrine? Not that it is by any means the only thing pastors do, ours preach the traditional 'law and gospel,' noting the law as a curb and a guide, with the gospel as the hope for when we run afoul of the law. They typically have an evangelism committee for local work, a teaching ministry for new members and unchurched, children's ministries and spend their 'free' time visiting old folks homes, people in jail and shut ins.

The money the church collects pays the pastor and any teachers if we have a school. Church leaders work for free and gladly. Depending upon the church we give a great deal to the synod for overseas ministry and evangelism, in my experience 10% to 30%. Our seminary is mocked by other denominations as the 'sausage factory' because our pastors are all trained to strict scriptural guide lines and must learn Greek, Hebrew with usually some Latin and German thrown in for good measure. If they were in it for the dough they'd have to be morons since their educations are so strenuous.

It sounds like you're not too keen on organized religion. I get that, I'm not either for the most part but there are good solid churches out there and it's entirely worth while to support them.

Talbot

Yea, I know that. Remember that I come from Texas, land of the mega-church, and I've seen too much. In the DFW are alone we have at least 50 churches of 20,000 people or more. Two churches over 40,000 and I started a Friday night outreach at one of them. They paid me as the worship leader very well because I was already making more through concerts and that is what it would take for me to stay home one week out of the month. Yea, I know it's a rock-star mentality but my calling is rather unique and very few worldwide are qualified enough to do it.

Anyway...out of my pay, I paid the musicians on my team. It wasn't much.....singers made $50 and musicians made $100 for a Friday night service once a month. Really, it was just a gesture of respect that barely covered gas for rehearsals and the service. However, the Sunday crew heard my team was getting paid and protested to leadership. I got called into the office and they actually tried to reprimand me!?

When they asked why I was doing it, I told them it was the right thing to do. After many days of committees deliberating they could only come to the conclusion I was right....and now every musician gets a gas allowance (at least) and full-time guys on the main team get paid $75. It didn't hurt this church to reward the people who make it a mega-church. For example, one of my background singers was Kari Jobe, who had Song of the Year recently with "Revelation Song" so it's not like these were average players. My old band is now her band and they're one of the biggest in the world now.

I digress.

There was a poll taken among Pastors of many denominations in 2012 that made it clear that most Pastors measure the faith of people by their participation in their particular church. In other words, they weren't judging the faith of their people by anything done outside of church programs.

And I've been on the receiving end of that before in a congregation that was building their own kingdom. When I told the Pastor my calling was beyond the little city we were in, he rebuked me. I've since proven that God was calling me to something other than staying his worship leader forever, but if he had his way I would have been hiding my light under a bushel to serve him, instead of what God called me to do. In other words, the Pastor didn't care what God called me to do if it interfered with the Pastor's plans for me.

I don't think my experience is all that unique. This means people are not being "sent out" (as commanded in scripture) but "kept in" for free labor. Without pay.

That's just wrong.


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I quite agree with you, 'that is wrong.' I honestly can't imagine attending a 'mega church.' We have a few of them in Atlanta with shysters like Creflo Dollar sucking the juice out of suckers.

We've been 'sending people out' for a long time, training pastors and missionaries in Africa, the Ukraine and other places. I'm particularly happy to send them to Zambia - those folks used to be my enemies during the war.

One thing I particularly like about my little Lutheran synod is despite having worshiped with them in GA, PA, FL and ID I've yet to see the pastor's name on the sign outside the church.

I love our pastors but I appreciate that they realize it ain't about them.

Talbot