General Music Chat

I've been reading along, and don't profess to have the answers to what constitutes a "good" or "great" song as opposed to anything else. But I am a keen observer. I recall reading about how in the early days of Motown, Barry Gordy used to decide which songs were "good" and worthy of release. He had the studio crew record them, played them back for the entire staff and asked everyone to vote based on a simple question: you only have a dollar and haven't eaten; do you get something to eat or buy this record? If the majority voted for the record, he released it. Seems to have worked pretty well.

A corollary I can identify with is print copy; I've published enough and know what I was thinking each time. Sometimes I had something I wanted to say; other times, I was writing for a paycheck. The former tend to stand the test of time, while the latter were soon forgotten. Perhaps it's the same for folks who write songs. (And having something to say transcends whether it has lyrics or not.) Are you writing a song because you genuinely have something to say? Or solely because you want to make a buck? (Recognizing, of course, that those who genuinely have something to say may also want to make $$--but it isn't their primary motivation.)

I like music where the songwriter had something to say, whether it be instrumentally or w/ lyrics (I tend to prefer instrumentally). Few others share my tastes, but that's a 'nother issue. In this context, to me, a "good" song is one that I can readily identify w/ the writer (or performer), a specific issue or point in time; a "great" song is one where there is general agreement that a song is "good" (given my definition) and that others also want to play/record. True, there is a lot of crap released that somehow sells to the masses, but I've never been one to follow crowd mentality--while recognizing the power of it. Just because everyone is buying [insert name here]'s latest release doesn't mean it's "good"; it just means folks are buying it. Let's see who is still buying it in 10 years. But a song that has something to say, or invokes a specific issue, point in time, etc. will still be relevant in 10 years. And folks will still be listening to it.

As to songwriters - Nick Lowe - 'one hit wonder' - guessing you've listened to old classic rock/top 40 radio too long that you only know 'Cruel To Be Kind'. He's had a number of other songs on the radio, and wrote Elvis Costello's hit song "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace Love and Understanding" too.

i was going to ask the same question...which hit was lynard referring to? there's also "I Knew The Bride When She Used to R&R" and "I Love The Sound Of Breaking Glass"....in my book, those hits are all great songs....but IMO....NOT his best work! (in spite of being "hits")

I love his work with Little Village .... wish those guys would get back together to do another album!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnnSp0GO2wo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw1SCbpwnwE

Retire? I never claimed to be a full time musician, not enuff money in it, or at least not enuff to support my lifestyle. So I guess I'll decide which equipment to keep and which equipment to sell.

So there is no way to measure which songs are great or good, but you seem to be able to pick out which ones are bad.

Putting original songs out for free, is kinda like playing in the bars or any gigs for free.
Why put anything on CD thru CDBaby(that's not free to you), if your not looking for sales. I dare say, but if you had a song that sold anywhere on CD, youtube, or enjoyed radio play you would call that your best song.

Three chord song wrote down in standard notation, a little harder than you make it out, since you been doing it since high school you should be able to read all the great masterpieces ever written. If standard notation is so blase, then why is it taught in every college in the world that has a music dept?

No I don't listen to classic rock stations or even play classic rock, I listen and play mainly classical, with a little religous music throwed.

I still say the music writing is the hardest part.

So there is no way to measure which songs are great or good, but you seem to be able to pick out which ones are bad.

again....popularity has NOTHING to do w how i measure if anything is good or not. before my gig last night, my wife cooked a great italian meal. do i need a gazillion people to TELL me it was great before I come to that conclusion myself???

Three chord song wrote down in standard notation, a little harder than you make it out, since you been doing it since high school you should be able to read all the great masterpieces ever written. If standard notation is so blase, then why is it taught in every college in the world that has a music dept?

sorry, but no....it's just NOT all that hard to do. it involves ZERO talent to do it. it's a learnable SKILL that just about anyone w the desire to do so....can learn to do. like balancing a checkbook or changing the oil in your car.

let's be clear....i never said it's unimportant, lacks value, or should be left by the curb. it IS a useful, valuable language, and a worthwhile SKILL to have in your toolbelt.

but i remain unimpressed because someone can notate a lead sheet for "Achey Breaky Heart"! Really, Lynard if you don't already know how to do that....you (like most musicians) have the ability to learn to do that. Bro, it AIN'T rocket surgery.

Is your wife trying to cook for a living or even strangers at a bar?

When you say lead sheet I think of when I come to audition for a band they have a song list and next to the title of the song they have the chords listed in the order they are played in the song(and these are great). Standard notation on the other hand will show me the melody line of the singers voice, timing, even nuance, and the bass( even tho bass has been pretty standard for 100s of years, and your expected to know it), loudness, and more you diminish a skill that you can recieve a Doctorate in as you do for "rocket surgery", so to argue which doctorate is more important is for another thread.

Is your wife trying to cook for a living or even strangers at a bar?

what difference does it make? i'm judging the quality of something. same thing for a song that is or ISN'T created with the intention of being a hit. some local bloke is perfectly capable of writing a "great" song even if you or i never hear it. by my definition anyway.

that's the point i'm making....popularity doesn't make ANYTHING "great". it just makes it "popular.

When you say lead sheet I think of when I come to audition for a band they have a song list and next to the title of the song they have the chords listed in the order they are played in the song(and these are great).

nope, that's a "chord chart"...not a "lead sheet". big difference.

a "lead sheet" has the chords written out bar by bar with the melody written out in standard notation.

You say tomato I say tomato

If you can't measure it's success its just your opinion with no facts to back it up.

Do you remember any great musicians from 50 years ago or a 100 years ago or 200 years ago or 500 years ago>
What about songwriters or composers?

I still say songwriting is the hardest part of this music business, thing or whatever you want to call it. I have a way to measure success earnings and time, while you just phonate. Is that being snarky?

What's a "phonate"???

Of course it's my OPINION that I'm giving. When did I say otherwise?

It's different than yours. Live w it. We don't have to have the sand opinion.

It's your OPINION that songwriting is the hardest part of music. I don't think I agree but would have to put some thought into what I believe is.

It might be your OPINION that you can measure greatness or success by financial earnings.

That not how.i measure success. I never had any illusions about getting rich playing music...not why I play.

I wanted a life filled w music and that's what I have, playing music I enjoy w good musicians I love and respect.

Might not be your definition of "success" but it is mine.


One last thing about opinions .... If you expect everyone to agree w your opinions and not voice theirs....maybe posting on a forum isn't the best idea.

Right back at you!

The church band I play in (when I'm not sick) hands me 'lead sheets' which have a little bit of everything. For me, I mostly look at the chord charts even though they seem more specific to guitarists I can throw together a bass part in five minutes, then work it into something worth while.

The musical notes spelled out for the singer and Keyb are occasionally helpful as well but when playing in rock bands I have to admit, I always felt lucky when somebody was kind enough to hand me a chord chart and usually had to make up my own.

Talbot

In my opinion (see how he did that?), a "great" musician is someone who can roll w/ anything (not limited to 3-chord tunes) w/o a chart or lead sheet and sound like they've always been playin' those tunes, even while they can read music well enough. A "good" musician is someone who is somewhat dependent on charts, lead sheets or scores, but still can fit in w/o them, albeit to a lesser degree. Likewise, "great" musicians have a keen ear and can pick out nuance on the fly; "good" musicians have a good ear, but need to work at it a bit more. I'm of the opinion that anyone can learn to read and play music...if they'll put in the time and apply themselves.

I'm not a "great" musician, but pass for "good." I can read and write music (altho I no longer sight read, from lack of repetition), but have never written songs. If you want me to sit in w/ your band, I'll ask for charts, unless the tunes are well known standards. Sometimes even if they are. Sometimes I'll need to stop in the middle of a song to catch any nuance you've developed, but then I'll ease right back in.

But if you're not doing anything that is musically interesting (to me, anyway), or if you can't read a basic chart (and hence cannot supply them), or aren't willing to play a tune in rehearsal 2-3 times to get it right (maybe you were expecting a "great" musician who only needs a single run-thru?)...meh. (Wait--is he steering the discussion back to the subject of the thread?) That's what I often find, and as a result, am less inclined to keep sloggin' away, esp. when I need to haul that hefty rig. Piano bar it is.

Listen, you guys are entitled to my opinion and that's a fact.


A great song is something born of of passion. A good song is born of skill.


For at least one of those you need to be a musician, but really it's all a matter of how it's produced, funded, marketed, etc. to get mass popularity on the scale of major pop and hip-hop stars (rock is dead, btw)

But if you're talking about a great production of a great song done with skill then you've got a winner's chance to compete against all those who are already doing that also. Because once the recording is great, you still have to leave everything to bring it to the world. Not many people are actually able to do that together for long in synch these days unless there is a LOT of money coming in, so bands typically only last as long as they can put out a lot of "great" (In someone's opinion) songs constantly. Albums are officially dead but publishing is still about content, content, content which means songs, songs, songs. There aren't many who actually do that important and simple job.

So basically, if you wanted to take the hard road (songwriter doing originals since 1977) like I did you have to believe your songs are worth buying for an end audience enough to bet your life on it

It's a bold move, imo. If it were easy everyone would be doing it. So few actually try.

Not saying I'd recommend the lifestyle so much either...but it does have its moments that keep you coming back for more.
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Words of EXTREME WISDOM!
I Love the person, incredible musician and songwriter you are.

What bothers me me is I feel you have been through a rough patch. I'm not being nosey but you are one of the few I give a damn about. I have your old cell #. Is it still the same... Don't matter we will always be able stay in touch.

WANNA COME UPAND GET BIT BY A PIG? Big smile.

Words of EXTREME WISDOM!
I Love the person, incredible musician and songwriter you are.

What bothers me me is I feel you have been through a rough patch. I'm not being nosey but you are one of the few I give a damn about. I have your old cell #. Is it still the same... Don't matter we will always be able stay in touch.

WANNA COME UPAND GET BIT BY A PIG? Big smile.

Same number, yea

Yea, it's been a rough few years so I'm taking my first real time off in 12 years of non-stop touring. It's now been 8 months since I started sleeping in the same bed every night. Well, mostly; I've only done one little 3state tour and a couple of fly-ins. Have a couple of enormous gigs coming upon April at the Swiss Parliament in Bern and concerts in Jerusalem in May.

In the meantime, I'm enjoying the heck out of being the "unknown" local singer at all these really cool jam sessions across this area. It really is a cool music scene to explore in Asheville, Greenville, Charlotte, Columbia, Charleston...oh man...things are so much closer here than they were in Texas with amazing nature as an extra reward. There's no way I could possibly kayak in every white water stream around here in my lifetime. Mountains, waterfalls, oh...I love it.

l'd been intensely taking care of my mom in my house just twenty feet away in the next room on a feeding tube since October, but she's finally started walking and might get her peg tube out by next week, which would finally free me up to go wild. As if I haven't been? lol

So yea, it's a rough patch that I'm making the best of. Thanks for noticing.