General Music Chat

Irminsul,
I agree with this viewpoint, too. The 'poo-poo-ers,' as you put it, may angrily deny their low self-esteem, but the facts are glaringly obvious to several other readers here, as well.
.
It's been my experience that those who continually cut-down others are really just trying to make themselves look better, by comparison.
Their criticisms are their awkward attempts at inferring that they know more about a thing than the person they are criticising.
.
I try to avoid talking with these people. They won't change their minds no matter what.
Yeah - forget them. No statue has ever been raised to a critic . . .

Dionysus, im having trouble following you somewhat.
#1 don't empower your critics by letting them see it makes you angry or frustrated when they say something.

Herein lies the problem as i read/see it: are you doing something around those people that make them think "oh, for cryin' out loud, not this same song again" and play it or talk about it constantly? something has to set these people off somewhere along the line.
I am by no means saying the fault is yours.
Seriously...a year for one song? may i ask, is it even remotely familiar to your original idea? now when thinking about what i asked, if you have no idea what the original concept was...it's time to move on. If i was to work on a piece (im not a writer/composer) for an extended period of time it would metamorphose into so many different themes the beginning intent would be lost. Plus id have 2, 3, 4, or 5 separate songs that could be brought to life. I don't know man.
Finally reading why you asked about integrity in the first place, it seems instead of integrity, you should have asked about perseverance.

The three minute pop song was not always the format for popular writing. Back when humans had attention spans of longer than 20 seconds, symphonic pieces lasted as long as they needed to, to make their point. They were sophisticated affairs that interwove several melodic phrases, sometimes in a progressively morphed manner, to create a work of art for the listener. Sometimes such things took a year. Or years. It didnt matter to the composer, because in their minds it would take as long as it took. And yes, often it led to several other pieces or variations. A good piece is a gift that keeps on giving.

Good point. Brahms took twenty years to complete his first symphony. This was because he was called the next Beethoven and he found it difficult to think his work was worthy. Meanwhile he composed all sorts of concertos and chamber pieces while he finished his masterpiece. I'm so glad he took his time. The symphony was a huge success from the day it premiered, and is considered to be one of the greatest symphonies ever written. Expand your horizons, throw out your preconceptions and challenge yourself.

Franny, I'm one those slow writers. I'll write something and come back later and refine it, I'm never really happy with it I guess. I am suspicious of people who tell me they've written thousands of songs. Something good should take a good amount of time to produce.

Musical integrity means:

* Being who say you are.

* Playing to the ability you say that you can play to.

* Having the training and experience you say that you do.

* Meeting your commitments to a band or client who has commissioned your musical talent.

'Zactly!

tj

www.myspace.com/tajacousticguitar

I am suspicious of people who tell me they've written thousands of songs. Something good should take a good amount of time to produce.

HAHAAHAA!! I know, I get a kick out of that one too.

"I've written over one thousand songs!"

"Well yes, but they all suck."

Thank you all so much! These are the kinds of comments that make me glad I made a post. It is a very fine line between arrogance and confidence, but if no one dared to go there, we would have Green day and Blink 182 everywhere. They have sold some records, but artistically move me very little.

Franny, I'm one those slow writers. I'll write something and come back later and refine it, I'm never really happy with it I guess. I am suspicious of people who tell me they've written thousands of songs. Something good should take a good amount of time to produce.

I can dig everything you said jimmyd, I guess what i was trying to get at really was, why argue about it? It seems that now he knows where his critics stand and who they are. I'm guessing these critics are either friends or fellow musicians he works with. If so, Dionysus knows exactly what and how much to expect (or in this case, not to expect) from them, so debating with these critics from this point on is pointless, as someone wrote earlier..."They won't change their minds no matter what". Thats what i was getting at "why bother?"
Musical Integrity is as much personal as it is a personality trait, everyone carries their own definition of it.

"I've written over one thousand songs!"

"Well yes, but they all suck."

Reminds me of a comparison I read between John Wayne and Dustin Hoffman. Wayne said (paraphrasing from memory), "I love to act. As soon as I finish a film I'm looking forward to the next one."

Hoffman: "I get so involved in the role that I can't imagine going through it all again."

There are guys who have written the same song a thousand times. I suppose it can be from the demand for production. He picks up the guitar and strums the old, familiar way until a song idea comes. Naturally, it will sound just like the previous effort.

Composing on a less familiar instrument is one way people get fresh ideas. One of the most prolific and diverse songwriters I knew was a drummer. He knew enough guitar and piano to come up with songs of numerous styles.

Selling out? I am not anti-capitalist. You need new guitar strings now and then, and they aren't free. What I think is often meant is sacrificing creativity in order to be molded into a neat, sellable, and vapid package. Bob Dylan's hard core fans were horrified when he first picked up an electric guitar. He did it anyway.

.....I am by no means saying the fault is yours.
Seriously...a year for one song? may i ask, is it even remotely familiar to your original idea? now when thinking about what i asked, if you have no idea what the original concept was....

Which is PRECISELY what many of them did. Is it not conceivable to you that the purpose of an initial inspiration was merely to lead you to another better idea?

.....I am by no means saying the fault is yours.
Seriously...a year for one song? may i ask, is it even remotely familiar to your original idea? now when thinking about what i asked, if you have no idea what the original concept was....

Which is PRECISELY what many of them did. Is it not conceivable to you that the purpose of an initial inspiration was merely to lead you to another better idea?

If it's a never ending work in progress...then what's the point?

..If it's a never ending work in progress...then what's the point?

If it spins off five or six other completed pieces, then THATS the point. This is not an infrequent phenomenon. It has happened many times during the course of composing one of my piano pieces. In fact I still have one that's not finished from 9 months ago, which inspired a completed concertita, a sonata, a prelude, and a quintet for piano and strings.

Musical integrity ... What does this mean?

Well, "integrity" means adgering to a moral code or set of principles. It also means honesty"

So, in a strict sense, integrity means being true to something, and not deviating from it at all, completely unimpaired.

So "Musical" integrity means being true to "music".

The real question is....

What music are you being true to? Keeping perfect with, and not deviating from, whatsoever?

and they change with different bands and different band members. Songs should evolve over time (hopefully improve), especially when new band members work out new solos, perhaps even add a bridge, maybe change some lyrics around. I could not possibly imagine playing the same song the exact same way for years and years, it would get so stale I would hate to play it. Talented musicians always hear something different than my original ideas anyway. I'm just a bass player. I can't dictate what the lead guitar does, or harmonica does, or any of the keyboard sounds that could be added to the song. I just play a solid bass and sing my ass off. That's what I'm paid to do anyway, therefore the more talented soloists should have absolute freedom to input whatever they want into the song. Everyone's happier and we almost always end up with a better song for it. Also playing it live the band members are more into it and this has a positive effect on the audience. I guess what I'm saying is that musical integrity has something to do with working freely and utilizing the talents of the various band members. Does that make any sense? Later...your friendly neighborhood bluesman fisherman bob