Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

man do i suck at guitar.i have found that the longer i play the more i dont get better at it and the less i know about it .maybe it would help if i hadnt tryed to teach myself and had jsut shelled out money for lessons and learned some of those scale things and even riffs to fill songs with, maybe someones got some suggestions for me.

I taught for many years... I'll talk your ear off on this one... but let me get off work first!
see u 2 nite!

If you are interested in scales I must assume
that you are at a point in your playing that
you understand some basic chords, how to hold
the pick, how to read tabs, the names of the
strings, etc(let me know if I need to cover
any of these things).
So, how to understand scales... there are a
lot of differing perspectives on how to learn
scales and each different perspective has
advantages... for instance, you can analyze a
scale by the distance between the notes that
make up that scale. EX. the c major scale
could be analyzed like: w w h w w w h
where a w represents a whole step(two frets)
and an h represents a half step(one fret)...
so C major would look like...
C D E F G A B C - if you look at these notes
on the gtr you'll notic C to D is a whole step,
D to E is a whole step... E to F is a half step
etc. this method works great for some
people... but I've found one that works much
better for me...
it's quite abstract... so bear with me...
it's called the 3-notes per string method.
The idea is that you comprise scales in a
way that ends up yielding 3 notes on each
string... this is really a method that will
help you see the "pattern" of a c major scale
all over the neck... so how does it work?
It's easy... the major scale (we're going to
do this in the key of C major) can be thought
of as a repeating pattern comprised of 7 smaller
repeating patterns...
each one of these patterns has three notes on
a string. The pattern is described as follows:
three long ones, two short ones pointing to the
headstock, and then two short ones pointing to the
body of the gtr... this pattern then repeats.
now I know your thinking "what the ?"... just
hang in there and I'll explain...
what is a "long one?"
simple... it looks like this(tab)

e-------------------------------------------------------------
b-------------------------------------------------------------
g-------------------------------------------------------------
d-------------------------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

-we call it a "long one"(don't laugh) cause each note is
seperated by a fret. thats easy enough right? 3 notes
on the e string seperated by one fret.
at this point we need to introduce some rules for our
pattern...
1) each mini-pattern starts on the same fret on the
next string unless otherwise specified...
2) when going from the three long ones to the two
short ones pointing to the head we will move up one
fret (I'll explain more later)
3) when going from the g-string to the b-string we move
up one fret.

so three simple rules, and a pattern... got it memorized yet?
I swear if you can memorize those two concepts you will
automatically know any major scale - all seven positions,
all over the neck... ok
here we go again...
so we started out with one long one... like below...

e-------------------------------------------------------------
b-------------------------------------------------------------
g-------------------------------------------------------------
d-------------------------------------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

so what comes next in our pattern? another long one = right!
three long ones, two short ones going to the neck, and two
short ones going to the body...

e-------------------------------------------------------------
b-------------------------------------------------------------
g-------------------------------------------------------------
d-------------------------------------------------------------
a-------------3--5--7----------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

-we start it at the third fret on the a string (rule #1 above)
-so what comes next in our pattern? can you guess?
that's right! another "long one"!

e-------------------------------------------------------------
b-------------------------------------------------------------
g-------------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------3--5--7------------------------------
a-------------3--5--7----------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

so now we must cover what a short one going towards
the neck looks like:

it looks exactly like a long one except the first two notes
are not seperated by a fret. You can kind of think of it
like an arrow pointing towards the headstock.
now keep in mind that this one will start "one fret up" from
our current starting point cause rule#2 applies here as we
are "going from the three long ones to the two short ones
pointing towards the headstock"... so it looks like

e-------------------------------------------------------------
b-------------------------------------------------------------
g----------------------------------4--5--7-------------------
d-----------------------3--5--7------------------------------
a-------------3--5--7----------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

note it starts at the fourth fret (rule #2 = one fret up)
and the first two notes aren't seperated by a fret (4 and 5 fret).

okay: what comes next in our pattern?
that's right! another short one pointing towards the head.
ahhh, your catching on...
but wait... we need to recognize rule #3.
We are going from the g-string to the b-string so....
move up one fret! so...

e-------------------------------------------------------------
b---------------------------------------------5--6--8--------
g----------------------------------4--5--7-------------------
d-----------------------3--5--7------------------------------
a-------------3--5--7----------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

so where are we in the pattern? that's right! now we
need a short one going towards the BODY. So what
does that look like? Simple! It is exactly like a long
one except the last two notes are not seperated by a
fret... so.

e-------------------------------------------------------5--7--8--
b---------------------------------------------5--6--8--------
g----------------------------------4--5--7-------------------
d-----------------------3--5--7------------------------------
a-------------3--5--7----------------------------------------
e---3--5--7--------------------------------------------------

at this point we have defined a pattern that has three
notes on each string and coverst all six strings...
this is actually the c major scale!
I'll stop at this point for questions and to give you
a chance to let this soak in... next time we will begin
to see how this pattern simply "cycles" around the neck
and is the blueprint to show you "all the notes in c major
from the first fret up to the 24th fret!".
I swear: learn this pattern and these three rules and
you won't ever need to know another scale! You will
know them all! Sounds hard to believe doesn't it?
well, that's all for now... your first pattern is complete.
mv

technically and not technically I am a gtr teacher... have sev years of teaching under my belt, sev best young gtr or bass player certificates, attended MI and tested into the highest level of theory in college(and got an A).
I would say don't just go learn other ppuls stuff. That is not a bad way to learn... but it's not the most efficient: here's why. If you learn somebodies riff... lets say eric johnsons cliffs of dover, you will know that riff... and develop the skills to play that riff...
but if you learn the scale you will develop the skill to play any riff.
I made my living having students bring in recordings and pay me to teach them based on transcribing what I though the gtr player was doing... and there's nothing wrong with that... but if I had to redo my learning experiences... I'd have spent more time on the scales...
it really is the basis for everything anyone is doing... and it will develop the ability to play anything... not just one riff...

we've all been in ruts though... and there is no substitute for someone being right there showing you... so gophers advice is certainly good...
but keep in mind he plays with two less strings...
and hence cannot be trusted.
mv

I love teaching so much I can't hold off... so:

installment 2!

ok last time we covered our three notes per string pattern,
and the rules that go with it. we then proceeded to learn
the ascending pattern on the gtr neck. Now the fun begins.
Remember our pattern:

3long ones, 2shrt ones pointing towards the headstock,
2shrt ones towards the body

and our rules:

1) all patterns continue on next string starting from sm
base fret as the last pattern
2) when going from the three long to the two short ones
pointing towards the headstock - we must move up one fret
3) when going from the g-string to the b-string: move up
one fret

where did we end in the pattern?
that's right we ended at the first of the two short ones
pointing towards the body.
what string was that on?
right, that was the high e string.
here comes the philosophy...
so we did the "first of the two short ones towards the body"
on the e string... so the three notes we did would be the sm
on the low e string right? hence they would also be in the
key of c major right? right.
so start on the low e with the sm mini pattern... and we
have the begining of the next "position" of the c major
scale... ie...

e-----------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------
e-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------

so what is next in our pattern?
that's right - another short one pointing towards the body!
so we have:

e-----------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------
a-------5-7-8-----------------------------------------------
e-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------

so what comes next in the pattern?
righto... we cycle back to the begining... so three longs ones!

e-----------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------
d-------------5-7-9-----------------------------------------
a-------5-7-8-----------------------------------------------
e-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------

followed by another long one...


e-----------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------
g-------------------5-7-9-----------------------------------
d-------------5-7-9-----------------------------------------
a-------5-7-8-----------------------------------------------
e-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------

followed by another long one... but wait... don't forget about
rule number two! move up one fret when going from the g to the
b string!

e-----------------------------------------------------------
b-------------------------6-8-10----------------------------
g-------------------5-7-9-----------------------------------
d-------------5-7-9-----------------------------------------
a-------5-7-8-----------------------------------------------
e-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------

what next? two short ones going towards the headstock...
but wait... don't forget to apply rule number one!


e--------------------------------7-8-10---------------------
b-------------------------6-8-10----------------------------
g-------------------5-7-9-----------------------------------
d-------------5-7-9-----------------------------------------
a-------5-7-8-----------------------------------------------
e-5-7-8-----------------------------------------------------

we just learned our second pattern... and all we needed to know
was our pattern and our three rules...
wasn't that easy? well, maybe if u r an abstract thinker like
me... please: ask all the q's you have!

till next time
cheers.

Mike you friggin rock bro!

Not everyone would spend that kind of energy to help a stranger out like that. Props to you brother!

And to Cat Killer, something that has always encouraged me....

Practice REALLY DOES make perfect.

Many many years ago, I read something I never forgot. They did a study to find out how much of musical excellence could be hereditary and how much was just hard work.

They went to a music conservatory and tested violinists, with a grade of "poor, good or excellent" regarding skill level. The judges had no information about these students, other than hearing them play.

When all was said and done, it was discovered that the musicians rated as "excellent" practiced TWICE as many hours as those rated "good".

The "good" players tended to practice TWICE as much as the "poor" musicians.

What that told me, was that we are designed so amazingly, each and every one of us, that ANY of us, barring physical or mental defects, have the ability to be a world class violinist, or guitarist, or whatever.

It's all about the work you put into it. There are no real shortcuts.

thank you sir(maxim). I do it because I truly enjoy it. When I learned this method it opened up the world for me... if you don't look at it and see a gigantic key to musical understanding on the gtr then you don't understand it. PERIOD.
It applies to the first four strings on the bass too... and the next step will simply blow your mind...
root notes.
depending on how you look at the starting point to this pattern... it can be the major scale, the minor scale, dorian, phrygian, locrian, mixolydian, lydian...
and any other scale can be derived from it... pentatonic, harmonic minor, melodic minor... etc.
Once you understand the root note rules you can use this to be able to instantly play in any key from any starting note on the gtr... but I will have to give up that info another day... (can't type worth a sheeattt on this laptop!).
I like your words about practice maxim... so true. keep in mind tho... don't just practice harder... practice smarter. Learning scales not only gives you the physical skill needed to play ANY riff ANYONE plays... it also helps you see the "framework" that all music is based on(except middle easter semi-tone based music... but that's a dif story). Practice the scale long enough and you will know what "pattern" someone is using just by hearing it. In any key you will be able to jump from the 3rd fret to the 17th fret and never miss a beat. I wish someone had given me this gift when I was 10. Anywho,
I hope someone finds this info as usefull as I have.
cheers.

try and play something new each and every time. If you run into a stone wall keep hitting it until you fly over it. Absolutely never give up no matter how frustrating it may seem at times. I guarantee one day you'll get it. Good luck...actually luck has nothing to do with it, you'll get it if you want to get it. Later...

i try to play all sorts of stuff but it seems that i never really understood some of the stuff and the sad part was i taught myself mostly all of the basics like reading tablature,chords,hammer ons and pull offs(believe me for teh longest time i had no clue what they were)bar chords(when i first seen these i was like oh dear god how many fingers, but thanks mike for the help, i may just print off the lessons you have written so that i can study them.

CaT killer wrote:i try to play all sorts of stuff but it seems that i never really understood some of the stuff and the sad part was i taught myself mostly all of the basics like reading tablature,chords,hammer ons and pull offs(believe me for teh longest time i had no clue what they were)bar chords(when i first seen these i was like oh dear god how many fingers, but thanks mike for the help, i may just print off the lessons you have written so that i can study them.

I'm glad, you haven't given up on the guitar. You're self taught and you've gone so far with out in put from others. Pat your self on the back , in time you' ll master it all.......just don't give up !!!!

well i can honestly say i play better now then i did two years ago.

I have a suggestion, play drums. Plus they get the most hot chick's. Believe me I know.

not always just look at peter criss that poor guy it was almost like they did it just to cheat him.

i took lessons for 2 years and that helped with learning scales and reading music, but i think i learned most of it on my own just by playing things by ear. thats the best way to get good in my oppinion. ive been playing for 13 years now and can basically pick up my guitar and play whatever song im listening to.. it just takes time, patience, and dedication. youll get there man.