Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

Again I'm researching and in consideration of moving the band totally into digital processors.
No guitar amps what so ever.
So many new ones on the market with the capability of fine tuning each frequency of the various presets, as well as loop capability from SD cards for additional effects ( like sounds of rain & thunder for the intro & outro of RAIN FOR DAYS

Would be so nice to have absolute control over volume in every setting.

Thoughts ?

Some guitarists swear by valve amps, and you can't argue their point. If you are playing fairly loud, need that tube warmth for the sustain and sound for the type of music you do (hard rocking, blues), the n you need a tube amp driving good speakers. Even taking the DI out of a tube amp doesn't give you the same sound.

On the ohter hand, if you can get the sound you want out of a digital box, then go for it. Look at JW - he's got great amps, but still will use a Line 6 Pod HD500, which I would consider the top of the line in processoirs.

Uhhhh... 'Maybe' if you own and control a badass p.a. and get to use it every time out.

I'm my personal case, the amp was built with the old philosophy of 'there may not be a PA', or "we don't need no stinkin PA".

Played a set outside in a dirt lot once - cranked it up, and it still sounded brilliant.

gtZip wrote:Uhhhh... 'Maybe' if you own and control a badass p.a. and get to use it every time out.

We do have a badass PA . . . but get to use it every-time ?

I'd not even considered that possibility.

GuitarMikeB wrote:Some guitarists swear by valve amps, and you can't argue their point. If you are playing fairly loud, need that tube warmth for the sustain and sound for the type of music you do (hard rocking, blues), the n you need a tube amp driving good speakers. Even taking the DI out of a tube amp doesn't give you the same sound.

On the ohter hand, if you can get the sound you want out of a digital box, then go for it. Look at JW - he's got great amps, but still will use a Line 6 Pod HD500, which I would consider the top of the line in processoirs.

I love that MARSHALL / GIBSON interplay like no one's business.

But I get frustrated dealing with volume issues.

If I could get my guys to ALWAYS tell prospective venues / clients :
" We are a rock band and we are LOUD . . . if that is a problem we are NOT the band your looking for."

sanshouheil wrote:I love that MARSHALL / GIBSON interplay like no one's business.

well, there ya go.

george, i doubt you'd get much past gig two or three using processors/amp sims before you'd be missing that interaction between good player>good guitar>good amp.

and i've played many a gtr gig using my Johnson J Station (90's amp sim/cab emulator) straight into the PA w (self) satisfactory results.

and i have played plenty of gigs running a bass straight up thru the PA. i have fond memories of many enjoyable gigs (at medium restaurant/bar volume) gigs where PLANET JAZZ was using an ancient set of BOSE 802's powered w a 12 ch powered Carvin PA head. I just plugged a bass into one of the channels and sat back and collected compliments about the bass tone!

But I get frustrated dealing with volume issues.

and then...there's that. that was the reason i went to the J Station....being able to get some nice workable crunch tones w/o punishing volume.

If I could get my guys to ALWAYS tell prospective venues / clients :
" We are a rock band and we are LOUD . . . if that is a problem we are NOT the band your looking for."

LOL. yeah, always best when the customer knows what to expect!

Thanks for the input.

So the answer is probably very small amps that have to be miked for all gigs, small or large.
You can get some pretty ballsy 5 watt valve amps these days.

Yeah Mike . . . my MARSHALL CLASS 5 is one of those.

The best tone ( the sound in my head ) comes in with the volume running at about 8 - 9 . . . though I prefer to run her wide open and adjust the potentiometers on my guitar to be in the sweet spot for the type of song we are doing.
I'm using an MXR 10 band EQ to pull it down some for our 1200 sq/ft rehearsal space.

And still this thing is very loud for the space.

A few years ago we were between rehearsal spaces and tried to do the all digital into headphones thing. Roland drums, digital guitars and bass all mixed into the headphones for super quiet practice sessions. After two days we realized it just wasn't a rock band any more. Back to amps we went.

I have done several sets in a worship band using only a Vox Tonelab direct and it worked ok with decent guitar tone. This was Christian Contemporary music and not Led Zeppelin II though. Ponder this idea a bit with the boys.

Another way to go is to figure out how loud you want to be and put a SPL meter in the room. If you regularly rehearse at your target loudness it will be easier to replicate in front of an audience.

George

I run my Firebird through a hybrid amp - Marshal cab which I totally love but with a Fender Mustang (200watt) head. It's a 'modeling' amp and will in theory, sound like damn near anything.

In practice - it pretty much does and I can preset volume, tone, echo etc right down the line.

Should I start playing gigs? I'll switch to a Marshal tube head or something similar. 'Damn near' is good enough for what I'm doing now but when I get there I want that 100% crunch.

I was in a band once (on bass) that mike all the amps through a Sun PA and it worked pretty good. The trick was everyone had to get the right sound worked out in advance so the engineer had only to adjust the volume.
Trouble is, venues vary...

I honestly don't think there is a single solution for the multiple problems of playing in bands.

Talbot

It takes discipline to get good sound at a low volume and it can be done. If you are using an acoustic drum kit you can only turn down as low as the drummer is willing to play. I am in love with my Carvin X100B reissue amp. I have it set at 25 watts and rarely play beyond 2 on that. That is balanced with an average drummer. I use the boost function to sweeten volumes for leads. If the base player and other guitar player are willing to do the same you can be at a reasonable level. One thing to keep in mind if you are micing everything if you bring down the overall volume on your mixer you will have to turn the vocals up. When you start turning the pa level down to match or below instrument amp. Level the vocals will get lost.

if you really want to convert over to an all digital format for a live band, you have to keep a few things in mind.
if you want a good sound with tubes you have to be a player,
if you want a good sound from samplers , you have to be a programmer.


you have to be pretty a good programmer to adjust to changing dynamics.

analog band members work on common ground, with the possible exception of the vocalist.

when you strike a drum it is "X" loud effort is required to make it louder or softer ( lot of effort to make it soft)

tubes are run on extremely high voltage power supply's ( 250/ 600 volts) then moderately filtered and rectified. these supplies contain lots of great sounding dirt.they seek to be at certain volumes to sound good,
if you are in the ballpark, it's a no brain-er.

digital simulators are designed on millivolt power supplies and are still are for the most part unexplored territory for high decibel dynamics.

these 2 approaches are basically opposite, yet people still expect the same result by turning the same knob
that will never be.
digital sound can sound very good, we know this because we have all heard digital instrumentation that we think sounds excellent

jeff is going the rout of most bands these days
trading 60/100 watt power for 5/15/25 watt tube overdrive
proving it's still easier to program Leo Fenders' dirty high voltage power supply than get involved in the tangled morass of computer simulation.

but in your case i wouldn't do either

with a 1200 sq ft practice space,
I would build mic'ng booths for the high watt stuff
relocate and screen the drummer
and attempt to reproduce the set up live, as often as I could

Jeff's good point - acoustic drums, no volume control. You can only play as low volume as the drummer can do.
There are 1 watt tube amps available now, too - Blackstar and Peavey.
JCP's idea - iso boxes for your amps/speaker cabinets is the other option.
I wondered how TranSiberian Orchestra's 2 guitarists got such awesome tone with no amps on stage - they're running wireless to amps in iso boxes under/behind the stage, which are then miked to the PA - this info from the soundguy running the monitor board. And their sound is ALWAYS perfect.