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To those who served.Thank you.To all my Vietnam brothers>Thank you.To the new generation of soldier for protecting my freedom in Iraq.To all the Korean vets.Thank you.Monday will be the day that I will say.....
THANK YOU.always I'll remember.
Respectfully,
Joseph Francis Livers

Amen'

My brother (RIP) never should have served in Viet Nam. He had psychological problems before being drafted. He was a genius, his artwork before serving was museum quality pre-Nam. After Nam he couldn't do art at all, athough he wrote over 1,000 songs in his brief, chaotic life. I was perhaps his greatest friend in life. We had enormous fun for about fifteen years or so before I moved to KC from New Jersey. In retrospect, I believe it broke his heart and it haunts me to this day. There's a saying you're not your brother's keeper, or is it the other way around. His relationship with my father was rocky and complicated at best, but that's another story. Anyway, his name is not engraved on the Viet Nam war memorial, but as surely Nam killed him, just a slow, tumultuous death. A complicated family tragedy. Only I know how much fun we had. He spent every single social security dollar on me. We had raging fun, played golf nearly every day, had marathon Scrabble games lasting all weekend. He did crazy stuff you can't even imagine. But his genius was vanquished by war, just as surely as those who didn't make it home alive....

Thank you to each and every Veteran! You are the reason I get to enjoy doing what I want when I want!

A thanks to those who gave their lives and to their families for the sacrifice...
We should always live to be worthy of what was given.

A foggy MEMORIAL DAY memory from my childhood.
My parents, siblings, and I in a park near the waterfront in Corpus Christ.
Huge crowd, fighter jets zoom overhead, soldiers in dress uniform standing in a line.
They raise their rifles to fire a startling salute.
Old men, hold their wife close, with tears in their eyes.

As a child I did not understand.
As a husband father & grandfather . . . I do.
Thank you.

I wrote this when my best friend was a late casualty of that Vietnam horror.
he'd also served with my in the dark continent. A marine.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/peirce/peirce38.html

Talbot

And what a day. We have the potus, a tyrant and a Marxist who is stealing our liberty, destroying OUR bill of rights and OUR constitution that these fine men and women died to preserve presenting the wreath to the unknown soldier in a memorial service.

What a disgrace and a slap in the face to all who have ever served our country with honor.

fisherman bob wrote:My brother (RIP) never should have served in Viet Nam. He had psychological problems before being drafted. He was a genius, his artwork before serving was museum quality pre-Nam. After Nam he couldn't do art at all, athough he wrote over 1,000 songs in his brief, chaotic life. I was perhaps his greatest friend in life. We had enormous fun for about fifteen years or so before I moved to KC from New Jersey. In retrospect, I believe it broke his heart and it haunts me to this day. There's a saying you're not your brother's keeper, or is it the other way around. His relationship with my father was rocky and complicated at best, but that's another story. Anyway, his name is not engraved on the Viet Nam war memorial, but as surely Nam killed him, just a slow, tumultuous death. A complicated family tragedy. Only I know how much fun we had. He spent every single social security dollar on me. We had raging fun, played golf nearly every day, had marathon Scrabble games lasting all weekend. He did crazy stuff you can't even imagine. But his genius was vanquished by war, just as surely as those who didn't make it home alive....

Bless you Bob.

fisherman bob wrote:My brother (RIP) never should have served in Viet Nam. He had psychological problems before being drafted. He was a genius, his artwork before serving was museum quality pre-Nam. After Nam he couldn't do art at all, athough he wrote over 1,000 songs in his brief, chaotic life. I was perhaps his greatest friend in life. We had enormous fun for about fifteen years or so before I moved to KC from New Jersey. In retrospect, I believe it broke his heart and it haunts me to this day. There's a saying you're not your brother's keeper, or is it the other way around. His relationship with my father was rocky and complicated at best, but that's another story. Anyway, his name is not engraved on the Viet Nam war memorial, but as surely Nam killed him, just a slow, tumultuous death. A complicated family tragedy. Only I know how much fun we had. He spent every single social security dollar on me. We had raging fun, played golf nearly every day, had marathon Scrabble games lasting all weekend. He did crazy stuff you can't even imagine. But his genius was vanquished by war, just as surely as those who didn't make it home alive....

I've met a lot of Nam vets. Their stories are horrendous. Vietnam might arguably be the most barbaric engagement in warfare of the 20th century. I am sorry your brother had to endure that war and suffer as he did. If you believe in a heaven, surely you gotta believe then, that its partially heaven because he's in there, waiting for you... God Bless you and your brother, Bob...and happy memorial day.

I do not know what made a difference in the soldiers response between WWI, WWII, and Nam.
It certainly was not "more barbaric" . . .
Seeing a man burned slowly to death, skinned alive, or a baby having it's brains beat out with a rifle butt is no different in 1903 or 1963.
I feel that the difference may have been the mind set of those engaged and of the oblivion of those whom were not.
I have worked with many a Vet from WWII, Korea, & Nam.
The only two real differences I have observed is the way in which they dealt with the horrors in which they participated is that the men from 1940 1950 era believed whole heartily in what they were doing.
And they believed the only reason they came home was God willed it so.
Perhaps they were fortunate in not knowing the full extent of the corruption in their own government. Or perhaps they knew they had "moral" support from their countrymen.
One man summed it up thus:
"We were met at t he docks by our wives whom had worked in the shipyards to provide us with the means to win, our sons were met in the airports by dope head whores, who spit at them for giving them freedom"

sanshouheil wrote:I do not know what made a difference in the soldiers response between WWI, WWII, and Nam.
It certainly was not "more barbaric" . . .
Seeing a man burned slowly to death, skinned alive, or a baby having it's brains beat out with a rifle butt is no different in 1903 or 1963.
I feel that the difference may have been the mind set of those engaged and of the oblivion of those whom were not.
I have worked with many a Vet from WWII, Korea, & Nam.
The only two real differences I have observed is the way in which they dealt with the horrors in which they participated is that the men from 1940 1950 era believed whole heartily in what they were doing.
And they believed the only reason they came home was God willed it so.
Perhaps they were fortunate in not knowing the full extent of the corruption in their own government. Or perhaps they knew they had "moral" support from their countrymen.
One man summed it up thus:
"We were met at t he docks by our wives whom had worked in the shipyards to provide us with the means to win, our sons were met in the airports by dope head whores, who spit at them for giving them freedom"

Each war had its share of atrocity . But, the fundamental difference between WWI/II and Nam is two words: Geneva Convention.. Most people who didnt serve during that era or the present, are not aware of the importance behind it. The Geneva convention outlined certain rules for warfare, and enemies agreed to recognize and follow accordingly. This addressed how POWs were treated on both sides. Among things, It also outlined behaviors and practices for the winning side. In WWII a fella could stand the chance of successfully waving a white flag, bring amenities with him, have tea with the enemy, discuss why each side should give up, and be sent back to the other side, relatively assured he wouldn't get shot in the back. ...before the fire fight ensued.

Not so in Vietnam. Charlie had no room for mercy, no need to spare diginity and no need to exercise civility. They did not recognize or honor Geneva Convention. The warfare tactics were brand new to us. To Charlie, all enemy was fair game and treated with extreme prejudice...Win at all costs. (How many nazi woman tossed loaded babies at the armored division?)

Were there exceptions to this?, Sure there were.... but pound for pound, 'shell-shock' had a whole different meaning for each era.

Then , if you add the other factors: WWII solders recieved a big welcome home. Nam...SOldeirs were rejected and virtually spit on. these dynmics impacted soldiers of each era, respectively.

Bob's brother faced endless scrutiny and discrimination when he came home...(that's a fact) On top of his PTSD condition. The best thing Bob could have ever done (and he did) was to be his brother's champion, if only to protect his brother from the hippie assholes that would shun him.

Not to be offensive. But your history of action as far as the GC is concerned is weak.
Talk to the guys who were there . . . the GC was and still is, a big joke.

sanshouheil wrote:Not to be offensive. But your history of action as far as the GC is concerned is weak.
Talk to the guys who were there . . . the GC was and still is, a big joke.

MY history of action? Not sure what the hell you mean by that ... I was in Desert Storm Playing cribbage on a ship. What were you doing?

From Military.com Forum

The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. Vietnam soldiers spent more days in battle by far.


One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II ....75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled.

Just F' ugly!