Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

http://songwriting.songstuff.com/articl ... he_melody/

What do you think>?

I like this quote from Jimmy Webb: "A song is a magical marriage between a lyric (some words) and a melody (some notes). It is not a poem. It is not music. It is in this gray area of synthesis between language, rhythm and sound that some of the most acute of all sensors of human emotion lie."

Trying to analyze and produce a method of songwriting, like this lady is doing, takes all of the realness out of it. I guess if you want to write hits for Beiber and others to perfrom, this might work. She wants you to 'find a hook' first, then 'craft the song' around that. Reminds me of a songwriting exercise at the workshop I went to last year - maybe this works better with songwriting teams.

'Cadence'? It comes naturally when I'm writing lyrics, but sometimes I need to fit a few more words in - or a few less- because I'm writing what needs to be said, not writing to fit a template.

Honestly I think it's a pretty long read to cover something that should come from the heart.

But then I'm no writer / composer.
I just try to scribe what is given to me and when.

I lost what might well have been my best lyrics last night.

They were looping round in my head bone, but my back was hurting so bad I did not want to get up and write them down.

Bill, my chiropractic friend was able to help my back.
Not much he can do for my lost lyrical content.

"Just as long as your tune doesn't rhyme with every line or something similar"...

I did enjoy reading that though, I thought some others might find it useful.
(shrugs)

When it comes to musical advice, I just take what I can use and dump the rest. I wouldn't follow anything 100%, that's just not my thing.

Now if it was tech advice, I might follow it quite closely since I am not strong technically but it feels as if the creative and the technical are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Thus the creative is interpretative, where the technical might be more literal.

"Do what works for you".

It was a quality write I feel. I was not intentionally disrespectful.
As you state though "if" it had been tech oriented, the information would be less "beauty in the beholders eye".
If you follow my drift.

Chief Engineer Scott wrote:"Just as long as your tune doesn't rhyme with every line or something similar"...

I did enjoy reading that though, I thought some others might find it useful.
(shrugs)

When it comes to musical advice, I just take what I can use and dump the rest. I wouldn't follow anything 100%, that's just not my thing.

Now if it was tech advice, I might follow it quite closely since I am not strong technically but it feels as if the creative and the technical are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Thus the creative is interpretative, where the technical might be more literal.

"Do what works for you".

I like rhyme as well as songs that ramble on

As long as they are good and have something to say.

You know

like "Tootie Frutie" or some of those other great songs .

How about "Thre Little Fishys" < a standard for all time.

There's a pretty standard rule about rhyme and cadence, but I don't want to give away all the secrets.

Just create a little itch for you to scratch..

This is a subject close to my heart. These are just my opinions OK.
As a singer and writer I am very close and connected to my songs.
Especially the singing because it is so out front and connective to even the
musically inept listener. I don't know what percentage of buyers are the
inept customer I refer to but I believe it is substantial. The article I feel does
not speak to the importance of that vocal connection to the general
audience. In general the audience can not appreciate the musical talent
of the players unless they are a musician themselves or one of the players
has a famous background.

Not everyone can understand music but almost all can understand words
especially when communicated emotionally and in tune. One thing I have
a very hard time understanding is how someone who is not a singer can
write a song that is absolutely perfect for someone else.
I guess its a skill I just don't have. I write songs for me to sing.

In NO way do I want to belittle the importance of the instrumentation but
the list of song ingredients did not include the vocal and emotional ingredient
contributed to a great song by a great singer. I think it deserves a place on the list.[/b]

Chief Engineer Scott wrote:There's a pretty standard rule about rhyme and cadence, but I don't want to give away all the secrets.

Just create a little itch for you to scratch..

Did you see the cool NASA 3D pic today? Now that one is really cool. This side of it hangs about 4-6" in front of the screen. What a gass.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

I'm using the light red / blue/green lighter style instead of the dark blue and red ones.

Chief Engineer Scott wrote:http://songwriting.songstuff.com/article/cadence_and_the_beginning_of_the_melody/

What do you think>?

I've written stuff in 5 minutes, and other stuff in 5 months. That 'moment on the ice' is unpredictable. There is no formula... Having said that, take the first idea you have in your head, express it with more than a flat line...and presto, you have a song.

GuitarMikeB wrote:I like this quote from Jimmy Webb: "A song is a magical marriage between a lyric (some words) and a melody (some notes). It is not a poem. It is not music. It is in this gray area of synthesis between language, rhythm and sound that some of the most acute of all sensors of human emotion lie."

Trying to analyze and produce a method of songwriting, like this lady is doing, takes all of the realness out of it. I guess if you want to write hits for Beiber and others to perfrom, this might work. She wants you to 'find a hook' first, then 'craft the song' around that. Reminds me of a songwriting exercise at the workshop I went to last year - maybe this works better with songwriting teams.

'Cadence'? It comes naturally when I'm writing lyrics, but sometimes I need to fit a few more words in - or a few less- because I'm writing what needs to be said, not writing to fit a template.

Jimmy Webb might not know the history of song. Then Again, I dont know Jimmy Webb.

The craft of song-writing stems out of pre medeval days. Troubadours (Or equivalent) would travel from village to village to share news of the kings, dukes, wars, etc... The manner in which they shared such news was given to entertainment for audiences. Its speculated that these messengers might have often been victims of death or injury for having told bad or unsettling news (Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger?) . It could be possible that the 'craft' of song-writing included clever musical methods and ways to entice listeners to swallow bad news with relative ease, so as to avoid deaths, and even get rewarded (paid) for delivering that news with flare. It was later that musicologists broke down and defined song structures, etc.

I will agree that Jimmy Webb gives a very eloquent description.

KLUGMO wrote:This is a subject close to my heart. These are just my opinions OK.
As a singer and writer I am very close and connected to my songs.
Especially the singing because it is so out front and connective to even the
musically inept listener. I don't know what percentage of buyers are the
inept customer I refer to but I believe it is substantial. The article I feel does
not speak to the importance of that vocal connection to the general
audience. In general the audience can not appreciate the musical talent
of the players unless they are a musician themselves or one of the players
has a famous background.

Not everyone can understand music but almost all can understand words
especially when communicated emotionally and in tune. One thing I have
a very hard time understanding is how someone who is not a singer can
write a song that is absolutely perfect for someone else.
I guess its a skill I just don't have. I write songs for me to sing.

In NO way do I want to belittle the importance of the instrumentation but
the list of song ingredients did not include the vocal and emotional ingredient
contributed to a great song by a great singer. I think it deserves a place on the list.[/b]

I agree about that connection between singer and listener.
A master of vocals, knows that to resonate with a listener, the song /melody should be executed in the way that makes sense
for listeners. What makes sense for listeners, is dictated by the context of the song.
For example, a musical phrase, with respect to a dire emotion, such as 'yearning for a loved one"...
the vocalist needs to convince the listener that indeed there is a genuine yearning for that loved one.
A master of vocals would know precisely how to articulate the melody to achieve that.
But that is only half of the solution. It really resonates with a listener, when in addition to that articulation,
the story rings close to home as per listener's own experiences.

A lot of song writers (who can sing) often make the mistake of presenting ideas that make no emotional sense to the listener, per-se
thus the articulate voice is lost on that audience, or is dimissed as just a 'pretty voice"

For example, maybe a guy like Frank Sinatra was very successful because he wrote about stuff the audience could rest upon and identify with. It just made his vocal prowess all the more appealing.

You say potato and I say "POTATO".

Everyone has their own style, cultivate yours today..lol

Of course cadence is a factor. All music is rhythm and melody.
Lyrics are open season. You don't even need sensible lyrics to have a good song.

http://youtu.be/gnSxtv5BnZo

PaperDog wrote:
Jimmy Webb might not know the history of song. Then Again, I dont know Jimmy Webb.

Bet you've heard of some of his songs!

Wichita Lineman
By The Time I Get to Phoenix
MacArthur Park
UP Up and Away