Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

Not a millennium thread.

A hypothetical question about commitments.

What if ( yeah I hate what if too but bear with me ) you were in contact and had some knowledge of an individual or group of individuals whom were seriously committed to forming a gigging / touring band.

Lets us assume that that you were offered a position in said group on, and provided the condition that each member would, after election of officials, be required to commit two thousand dollars up front for recording and merchandising expenses. Also provided that a written agreement were made and open books were available at each meeting to individual review of expenditure and that a unanimous vote were required before any of the said financing be expended.

Would you be disinclined to agree to said conditions?
What specific reasoning might you have to decline?
What other specifications would you require for such an enterprise to be agreeable?

Keep in mind this is purely hypothetical so let us consider this on an individual basis.

it's gut feeling thing,
the cost of recouping the money if required is way beyond the outlay,
no matter what is sighed or by who.
if the gig sounds fun and you can afford to spend 2 grand on it, go for it.

JCP61 wrote:it's gut feeling thing,
the cost of recouping the money if required is way beyond the outlay,
no matter what is sighed or by who.
if the gig sounds fun and you can afford to spend 2 grand on it, go for it.

A very practical response.

I also listen to my "guts" on a great many things and have come to trust my intuition as being nearly flawless.

A situation such as the one mentioned. If offered to me, I would have to consider the 2K as "gambled" and not expect to recoup in the traditional percentage method.

The band would either succeed or it would not. That to me would be the only thing in consideration by my instinct.

I arbitrarily selected two grand as a figure as for myself this would be more that I could "afford" to risk. And therefore represents a "leap of faith" if you will.

I've been "gambling" my entire musical career. In your specific hypothetical situation I would say no. Too much "gray" matter there. I don't like "gray" matter if it comes with a price tag. "Gray" matter for free is okay. "Black" matter may be acceptable with a price tag. I've been offered too many "gray" matter choices lately. Give me a guarantee and I guarantee I'll perform, quite admirably as usual.

sanshouheil wrote:Not a millennium thread.

A hypothetical question about commitments.

What if ( yeah I hate what if too but bear with me ) you were in contact and had some knowledge of an individual or group of individuals whom were seriously committed to forming a gigging / touring band.

Lets us assume that that you were offered a position in said group on, and provided the condition that each member would, after election of officials, be required to commit two thousand dollars up front for recording and merchandising expenses. Also provided that a written agreement were made and open books were available at each meeting to individual review of expenditure and that a unanimous vote were required before any of the said financing be expended.

Would you be disinclined to agree to said conditions?
What specific reasoning might you have to decline?
What other specifications would you require for such an enterprise to be agreeable?

Keep in mind this is purely hypothetical so let us consider this on an individual basis.

1) Before I could agree, I'd have to review their pro-forma (Need to see the full expected ROI and duration of the prj) . Also would weigh the ROI in the context of my 'adventure' clause. Would I have a lot of fun?, is the ride worth the ticket price?, etc.

2) If the adventure clause looked down, AND the overall ROI looked bad (i.e less than 3% above the margin of break-even I'd probably decline. But, if it was a great ride, even at 3 percent and if there was some longevity in the project (i.e 5yrs, lets say) I'd definitely consider it

3) I would require incremental increases on the merchandise. You don't want to obligate the guys and lock them down in the event the sales sucked, but you don't want to miss out on any windfalls either.


imho

Stick with the People you love no matter how difficult the journey.
Makes it easy to sleep at night.

Personally, I have no interest in touring with a band right now and my day job is pretty well established so it would be difficult to get away. The money would not stop me if it was something I felt strongly about.

One of my friends does a Pacific Rim tour every summer and he is there now. He is an extraordinary Christian vocalist and always goes with a top notch band to Japan, The Philippines, and Hawaii. If he asked me this question and wanted me in his band, I would give it serious thought because I know the players, the music is amazing, I know it is a well proven tour and I trust him. I would only take this risk with people I know well and trust. Very few gray areas. $2000 is significant but does not compare to the "lost opportunity cost" if I choose poorly.

Some thoughtful responses.

It begs to question how so many "musicians" expect an exceptional project to fall in their laps without having to make sacrifices.

Myself I have no blind faith. Sounds odd coming from a christian musician I'm sure, but I've been a sinner longer than I have been a Christian and my faith in that area has been supported by many proofs in my own life.

As far as a musical project, if feel an enormous amount of faith must exist first. In order for a project to "work" there must be some whom believe it can and will as a prerequisite.

It seems to me that many of the successful bands were together working hard for little or no gain for 8 - 10 years before they got a break.

Am I wrong here ?

There are 1000 ways to measure success. For a touring Christian band it usually means leading many to salvation. For a secular band it may mean a recording contract with Sony, X$$ in record sales, X $$ in concert revenue, return on investment, a booked gig calendar, or simply playing out with good friends for pure joy. The possibilities are endless.

Chasing success as a touring musician involves a lot of other personal costs which must be carefully weighed. Am I willing to trade the success I currently enjoy in my close family relationships, marriage, business, home, church family for the great unknown? No. It would have to be a very exceptional opportunity with people I know and trust to step out and risk what I have already achieved.

Two of my kids were at the top of collegiate athletics and at one time Olympic hopefuls. One went on to play professionally in Europe for two years. As the USA national teams were being assembled they faced the reality that to make the 2012 USA team would mean training 8 hours/day, 6 days a week for 4 more years with no guarantee of an Olympic spot. No life, no friends outside of their team, continually managing pain as they walked that fine line between maximum effort and physical limitation.

Both chose to hang it up and count their blessings rather than continue chasing their dream. They carefully weighed the costs, and the costs were simply too high. Several of their friends will be in the water in London next month and both of my kids are certain they made the right choice for themselves. It is this extreme level of sacrifice that gives the Olympics so much meaning.

Highly successful musicians can tell very similar stories of personal sacrifice. Keith Richards wears it on his face.

J 7, You speak many words of wisdom that can only be gathered with years of life experience. COOL BEANZ!

Thejohnny7band wrote:There are 1000 ways to measure success. For a touring Christian band it usually means leading many to salvation. For a secular band it may mean a recording contract with Sony, X$$ in record sales, X $$ in concert revenue, return on investment, a booked gig calendar, or simply playing out with good friends for pure joy. The possibilities are endless.

Chasing success as a touring musician involves a lot of other personal costs which must be carefully weighed. Am I willing to trade the success I currently enjoy in my close family relationships, marriage, business, home, church family for the great unknown? No. It would have to be a very exceptional opportunity with people I know and trust to step out and risk what I have already achieved.

Two of my kids were at the top of collegiate athletics and at one time Olympic hopefuls. One went on to play professionally in Europe for two years. As the USA national teams were being assembled they faced the reality that to make the 2012 USA team would mean training 8 hours/day, 6 days a week for 4 more years with no guarantee of an Olympic spot. No life, no friends outside of their team, continually managing pain as they walked that fine line between maximum effort and physical limitation.

Both chose to hang it up and count their blessings rather than continue chasing their dream. They carefully weighed the costs, and the costs were simply too high. Several of their friends will be in the water in London next month and both of my kids are certain they made the right choice for themselves. It is this extreme level of sacrifice that gives the Olympics so much meaning.

Highly successful musicians can tell very similar stories of personal sacrifice. Keith Richards wears it on his face.

A guy like Keith Richards (and his peers) grew up believing there wasn't anything else they "could" do, except be entertainers. ... I don't know that they ever 'aspired' per-se, in magnitude, toward the glory they received. (And in Richard's case, I don't think he takes fame very seriously. John Lennon was once quoted as saying "Were not that important..."; referring to Beatles)

All the "greats" simply followed the natural due course of labor and sweat, and the rest just unfolded as it would.

I think its dangerous to 'rationalize' our higher purpose.. .When we do that, we invariably sabotage the greater plans that God has metered out for us.

Many parents tell their kids they can "Be anything you want to be" They are lying. You can't be anything you want to be....Otherwise we'd all be 'everything' we want to be. Some kids will never be on par with Keith Richards, no matter how badly they want it or work for it. Like wise, some kids will exceed the par with Keith Richards.

We each are gifted with a set of capabilities...each according to God's plan of work. Its not much more to it than that. In all cases, regardless of occupation and specialty, we are consigned to acknowledge (if not spread) the good word... But only a very few are gifted with the privilege to ride the wave of notoriety, to deliver the message of GOD.

Johnny, if you do music for a living, and you successfully inspire others , getting the message of God out there... then consider yourself one of the privileged... and know thaenn given the helm

" Am I willing to trade the success I currently enjoy in my close family relationships, marriage, business, home, church family for the great unknown?"

Hmmm....

I guess this is why we have the fifth amendment.

Sometimes I look at a freeway exit with an in-explicable feeling of longing...

Talbot

I think you should just build as you go, instead of having a big business type plan for a proposed project.

If you are not sure that there is a high demand or a clammoring for the music, it's probably not wise to make a large financial commitment.

One exception to the cart before the horse is doing a Band Agreement. Which covers who has what rights, and what you do and do not have the right to if you leave or get fired, the division of money and the matter of song writing credits - Individually based, or all under one umbrella?
Etc.

Ruminate on what your endgame is.
What do you define as success, and what do the others define as success?

Consider this:
http://youtu.be/ma1g8SBhuyw

Be careful what you wish for.
Or at least be very aware of what you will accept and what you will not.

A good selection of very insightful responses again.

I see some of it thus ... you can reach for the brass ring and keep you feet on the floor.
Only a fool sacrifices health and true happiness for the dream of riches as we all know many if not most of the "rich" in show business are really pitiful examples of humanity.

But I digress.

Lets us back up a second here. We are talking two grand ... hell you can invest two grand in T-Shirts real easy for just a local band much less some national tour.

Hypothetical again of course.
If you were with me today and I came to you and said, If each member of the band invested 2K that we could and would be able to function as a band for two years with a CD and all the necessary merchandise to make a run at being picked up by sponsors.
Could you, would you, in a boat with a goat?

And if you wish a simple yes or no answer would suffice for my "research " purposes.

sanshouheil wrote:
Hypothetical again of course.
If you were with me today and I came to you and said, If each member of the band invested 2K that we could and would be able to function as a band for two years with a CD and all the necessary merchandise to make a run at being picked up by sponsors.
Could you, would you, in a boat with a goat?

And if you wish a simple yes or no answer would suffice for my "research " purposes.

No long distance tours, realistic gig schedules, expectations, goals. Players who can get it done. I'm in!

$2k effectively weeds out ALL the flaky CL wannabe musicians and that is a very good thing.