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#172575 by Slacker G
Wed May 09, 2012 2:21 pm
jimmydanger wrote:So the smart ones are all leaving? Does that explain why you're still here?


That may be why you are still here. I, however, was born and raised here. I realize that it is hard for you to remain on task, but this is thread, if you recall, is about illegal immigration.

#172595 by BestGuitarist
Wed May 09, 2012 6:15 pm
God Rest Your Soul! C?sar Estrada Ch?vez

(1927-1993), executive director of the United Farm Workers. Born in Yuma, Arizona, to immigrant parents, Chavez moved to California with his family in 1939. For the next ten years they moved up and down the state working in the fields. During this period Chavez encountered the conditions that he would dedicate his life to changing: wretched migrant camps, corrupt labor contractors, meager wages for backbreaking work, bitter racism.

His introduction to labor organizing began in 1952 when he met Father Donald McDonnell, an activist Catholic priest, and Fred Ross, an organizer with the Community Service Organization, who recruited Chavez to join his group. Within a few years Chavez had become national director, but in 1962 resigned to devote his energies to organizing a union for farm workers.

A major turning point came in September 1965 when the fledgling Farm Workers Association voted to join a strike that had been initiated by Filipino farm workers in Delano's grape fields. Within months Chavez and his union became nationally known. Chavez's drawing on the imagery of the civil rights movement, his insistence on nonviolence, his reliance on volunteers from urban universities and religious organizations, his alliance with organized labor, and his use of mass mobilizing techniques such as a famous march on Sacramento in 1966 brought the grape strike and consumer boycott into the national consciousness. The boycott in particular was responsible for pressuring the growers to recognize the United Farm Workers (ufw; renamed after the union joined the afl-cio). The first contracts were signed in 1966, but were followed by more years of strife. In 1968 Chavez went on a fast for twenty-five days to protest the increasing advocacy of violence within the union. Victory came finally on July 29, 1970, when twenty-six Delano growers formally signed contracts recognizing the ufw and bringing peace to the vineyards.

That same year the Teamsters' union challenged the ufw in the Salinas valley by signing sweetheart contracts with the growers there. Thus began a bloody four-year struggle. Finally in 1973, the Teamsters signed a jurisdictional agreement that temporarily ended the strife.

Believing that the only permanent solution to the problems of farm workers lay in legislation, Chavez supported the passage of California's Agricultural Labor Relations Act (the first of its kind in the nation), which promised to end the cycle of misery and exploitation and ensure justice for the workers. These promises, however, proved to be short-lived as grower opposition and a series of hostile governors undercut the effectiveness of the law.

After 1976 Chavez led the union through a major reorganization, intended to improve efficiency and outreach to the public. In 1984 in response to the grape industry's refusal to control the use of pesticides on its crops, Chavez inaugurated an international boycott of table grapes.

For thirty years Chavez tenaciously devoted himself to the problems of some of the poorest workers in America. The movement he inspired succeeded in raising salaries and improving working conditions for farm workers in California, Texas, Arizona, and Florida.

Bibliography:

Jacques E. Levy, Cesar Chavez: Autobiography of La Causa (1975); Dick Meister and Anne Loftis, A Long Time Coming: The Struggle to Unionize America's Farm Workers (1977).

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/cesar-chavez#ixzz1uOhmgHdU

#172606 by DennyDream
Wed May 09, 2012 10:02 pm
fisherman bob wrote:Didn't I hear a report that there's actually been a DECREASE in the illegal population, that more Mexicans are returning to Mexico than coming here? If that's so that means less votes for Obama.


Last I checked, non-citizens, much less illegal aliens aren't allowed to vote.

And yes, there are fewer illegal aliens coming and many going back b/c things are harder here than there-- imagine that.


Dey took er jerbs!!!!

#172607 by JCP61
Wed May 09, 2012 10:38 pm
der de der der

this is gay I'm going back to the pile..

#172613 by Paleopete
Thu May 10, 2012 12:12 am
When I first went to Texas in the mid 70's I had hell finding a job. Illegal mexicans working everywhere I looked. Finally got hired on a construction job building an apartment complex, driving a forklift. 5 white guys, (including the supervisor) 30 or so mexicans. Tried to drive a load of lumber across the yard first day on the job (on a HUGE fork lift) and found about 7 of them standing in the middle of the road talking. I honked the horn and yelled get out of the way. "No comprende" was the response. So I did it again. Same response. So I yelled "No comprende my ass" and stepped on the gas pedal. Suddenly they decided to comprende. The other 3 drivers had to sit there and wait till they decided to move on, the whole job. I'd honk, they would scatter. But only because they knew I wouldn't tolerate their nonsense. I've seen similar scenarios dozens of times.

Then one day my hammer, tape measure, pack of smokes and $60 Ray Ban sunglasses were stolen during lunch. Also a very common scenario. 3 years ago I watched 4 of them try to push our tool trailer back so they could hook up and drive off with it. In the middle of the day, on the jobsite. They decided it was a bad idea when we came outside with hammers...

Most of the framing crews here are all mexican. Sloppiest work I've ever seen. Studs are supposed to be placed on 16 inch centers. Nowhere close. One house we did the trim work in, the best room was an inch out of square. The best one...not a wall or ceiling in the place straight, square or plumb. Most of the windows wouldn't open, we had to fix them all. One door was out of plumb in different directions on each side. We had to completely rebuild the door frame, cut everything on angles to make it work. Same job they tried to steal our tool trailer. $10,000 in tools plus the trailer...And the house cost $300,000. Our bill was more than double what it originally should have been, due to all the sloppy work we had to fix.

I've seen these same scenarios played out dozens of times. I've looked for a job for 4 months and never ever gotten an interview while I watched illegal mexicans drive to work by the hundreds in Houston, Austin, San Antonio...went to a store in Las Vegas and got shoved all over the place by them, watched one grab something he wanted out of someone else's shopping cart, last one left...

Every time you see a mexican working, you see an American out of a job.

Eat meat? 90% of it is processed and packed by illegal mexicans. Read the book "Fast Food Nation" sometime. You'll be revolted by the things listed the author has seen. Urinating and defecating on the same floor where they process meat...get cut and bleed all over it...go to work with a cold and sneeze on the meat you buy at the grocery store...

Say what you want about J Haley and his viewpoint, I've seen what he sees for over 30 years. And I don't like what I see.

#172617 by J-HALEY
Thu May 10, 2012 1:39 am
Boy's I have lived it! Thanks Pete I am glad to see there is ONE AMERICAN that is NOT BLIND!

Dane Ellis Allen, I know what you are about. Your socialism will CRASH down on your DUMB@$$ some day! Hopefully the RESPONSIBLE folks in this country will stop it before it does come down on you and your ilk wanting YO free sh!t! :wink:

The good news is I am getting older. Some day soon I will move away from this big city! Then I can raise chickens, cattle, grow my own and shoot any PHUKER that comes on my land and disses me :wink:

Come to think of it I can already do that LMFAO! :lol:

#172637 by PaperDog
Thu May 10, 2012 4:57 am
Dane Ellis Allen wrote:God Rest Your Soul! C?sar Estrada Ch?vez

(1927-1993), executive director of the United Farm Workers. Born in Yuma, Arizona, to immigrant parents, Chavez moved to California with his family in 1939. For the next ten years they moved up and down the state working in the fields. During this period Chavez encountered the conditions that he would dedicate his life to changing: wretched migrant camps, corrupt labor contractors, meager wages for backbreaking work, bitter racism.

His introduction to labor organizing began in 1952 when he met Father Donald McDonnell, an activist Catholic priest, and Fred Ross, an organizer with the Community Service Organization, who recruited Chavez to join his group. Within a few years Chavez had become national director, but in 1962 resigned to devote his energies to organizing a union for farm workers.

A major turning point came in September 1965 when the fledgling Farm Workers Association voted to join a strike that had been initiated by Filipino farm workers in Delano's grape fields. Within months Chavez and his union became nationally known. Chavez's drawing on the imagery of the civil rights movement, his insistence on nonviolence, his reliance on volunteers from urban universities and religious organizations, his alliance with organized labor, and his use of mass mobilizing techniques such as a famous march on Sacramento in 1966 brought the grape strike and consumer boycott into the national consciousness. The boycott in particular was responsible for pressuring the growers to recognize the United Farm Workers (ufw; renamed after the union joined the afl-cio). The first contracts were signed in 1966, but were followed by more years of strife. In 1968 Chavez went on a fast for twenty-five days to protest the increasing advocacy of violence within the union. Victory came finally on July 29, 1970, when twenty-six Delano growers formally signed contracts recognizing the ufw and bringing peace to the vineyards.

That same year the Teamsters' union challenged the ufw in the Salinas valley by signing sweetheart contracts with the growers there. Thus began a bloody four-year struggle. Finally in 1973, the Teamsters signed a jurisdictional agreement that temporarily ended the strife.

Believing that the only permanent solution to the problems of farm workers lay in legislation, Chavez supported the passage of California's Agricultural Labor Relations Act (the first of its kind in the nation), which promised to end the cycle of misery and exploitation and ensure justice for the workers. These promises, however, proved to be short-lived as grower opposition and a series of hostile governors undercut the effectiveness of the law.

After 1976 Chavez led the union through a major reorganization, intended to improve efficiency and outreach to the public. In 1984 in response to the grape industry's refusal to control the use of pesticides on its crops, Chavez inaugurated an international boycott of table grapes.

For thirty years Chavez tenaciously devoted himself to the problems of some of the poorest workers in America. The movement he inspired succeeded in raising salaries and improving working conditions for farm workers in California, Texas, Arizona, and Florida.

Bibliography:

Jacques E. Levy, Cesar Chavez: Autobiography of La Causa (1975); Dick Meister and Anne Loftis, A Long Time Coming: The Struggle to Unionize America's Farm Workers (1977).

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/cesar-chavez#ixzz1uOhmgHdU


Not to be disrespectful toward Chavez...But My question is...Why didn't he fight like this ...for Mexicans in Mexico? I do not know of any Mexican national, who has shown bravery and courage to do for his own country, what Chavez tried to accomplish. We can talk human rights and compassion all day long... But the reality is that many, many Mexican nationals come to the US with complete disregard of U.S. Laws surrounding immigration... I bet you you if it Was Ireland or Germany or France coming over in droves the same way Mexico does, and if they took all the jobs away from the Mexicans... you know the Mexicans would raise a hissy fit... Its the blatant disrespect and inconsideration of these illegal immigrants which persuades me to support stiff immigration laws. [/b]

#172639 by J-HALEY
Thu May 10, 2012 5:05 am
JCP61 wrote:der de der der

this is gay I'm going back to the pile..


I said "I am sorry" Obviously that is not enough? :lol:

#172640 by PaperDog
Thu May 10, 2012 5:24 am
Paleopete wrote:When I first went to Texas in the mid 70's I had hell finding a job. Illegal mexicans working everywhere I looked. Finally got hired on a construction job building an apartment complex, driving a forklift. 5 white guys, (including the supervisor) 30 or so mexicans. Tried to drive a load of lumber across the yard first day on the job (on a HUGE fork lift) and found about 7 of them standing in the middle of the road talking. I honked the horn and yelled get out of the way. "No comprende" was the response. So I did it again. Same response. So I yelled "No comprende my ass" and stepped on the gas pedal. Suddenly they decided to comprende. The other 3 drivers had to sit there and wait till they decided to move on, the whole job. I'd honk, they would scatter. But only because they knew I wouldn't tolerate their nonsense. I've seen similar scenarios dozens of times.

Then one day my hammer, tape measure, pack of smokes and $60 Ray Ban sunglasses were stolen during lunch. Also a very common scenario. 3 years ago I watched 4 of them try to push our tool trailer back so they could hook up and drive off with it. In the middle of the day, on the jobsite. They decided it was a bad idea when we came outside with hammers...

Most of the framing crews here are all mexican. Sloppiest work I've ever seen. Studs are supposed to be placed on 16 inch centers. Nowhere close. One house we did the trim work in, the best room was an inch out of square. The best one...not a wall or ceiling in the place straight, square or plumb. Most of the windows wouldn't open, we had to fix them all. One door was out of plumb in different directions on each side. We had to completely rebuild the door frame, cut everything on angles to make it work. Same job they tried to steal our tool trailer. $10,000 in tools plus the trailer...And the house cost $300,000. Our bill was more than double what it originally should have been, due to all the sloppy work we had to fix.

I've seen these same scenarios played out dozens of times. I've looked for a job for 4 months and never ever gotten an interview while I watched illegal mexicans drive to work by the hundreds in Houston, Austin, San Antonio...went to a store in Las Vegas and got shoved all over the place by them, watched one grab something he wanted out of someone else's shopping cart, last one left...

Every time you see a mexican working, you see an American out of a job.

Eat meat? 90% of it is processed and packed by illegal mexicans. Read the book "Fast Food Nation" sometime. You'll be revolted by the things listed the author has seen. Urinating and defecating on the same floor where they process meat...get cut and bleed all over it...go to work with a cold and sneeze on the meat you buy at the grocery store...

Say what you want about J Haley and his viewpoint, I've seen what he sees for over 30 years. And I don't like what I see.


Pete, I have seen this too... And I do not like it either... When I think of Mexican labor, Quality and workmanship aren't the fore-running thoughts in mind. You mentioned construction... My pet peeve is with the home builders here... ... As MUUCH as I would love to blame the illegal workers for their crappy-assed sloppy-assed, No-Quality Worklessship... the actual winner of the leather-boot-in-the-ass award goes to the butt-heads who HIRE these idiots. U.S. Contractors hiring 10.00/hour labor to build 300K dollar homes... These contractors sit around smoking cigars and drinking beers at the golf course...rationalizing that they were 'efficient' builders", while you and I have to haggle with plumbers and electricians to over the cost of corrections that should never have been necessary.. ... and the list goes on... ...

The big Q...Are Americans willing to throw their teenagers into the orchards and fields to take up the jobs that nobody wanted before...?

#172641 by BestGuitarist
Thu May 10, 2012 5:26 am
PaperDog wrote:
Dane Ellis Allen wrote:God Rest Your Soul! C?sar Estrada Ch?vez

(1927-1993), executive director of the United Farm Workers. Born in Yuma, Arizona, to immigrant parents, Chavez moved to California with his family in 1939. For the next ten years they moved up and down the state working in the fields. During this period Chavez encountered the conditions that he would dedicate his life to changing: wretched migrant camps, corrupt labor contractors, meager wages for backbreaking work, bitter racism.

His introduction to labor organizing began in 1952 when he met Father Donald McDonnell, an activist Catholic priest, and Fred Ross, an organizer with the Community Service Organization, who recruited Chavez to join his group. Within a few years Chavez had become national director, but in 1962 resigned to devote his energies to organizing a union for farm workers.

A major turning point came in September 1965 when the fledgling Farm Workers Association voted to join a strike that had been initiated by Filipino farm workers in Delano's grape fields. Within months Chavez and his union became nationally known. Chavez's drawing on the imagery of the civil rights movement, his insistence on nonviolence, his reliance on volunteers from urban universities and religious organizations, his alliance with organized labor, and his use of mass mobilizing techniques such as a famous march on Sacramento in 1966 brought the grape strike and consumer boycott into the national consciousness. The boycott in particular was responsible for pressuring the growers to recognize the United Farm Workers (ufw; renamed after the union joined the afl-cio). The first contracts were signed in 1966, but were followed by more years of strife. In 1968 Chavez went on a fast for twenty-five days to protest the increasing advocacy of violence within the union. Victory came finally on July 29, 1970, when twenty-six Delano growers formally signed contracts recognizing the ufw and bringing peace to the vineyards.

That same year the Teamsters' union challenged the ufw in the Salinas valley by signing sweetheart contracts with the growers there. Thus began a bloody four-year struggle. Finally in 1973, the Teamsters signed a jurisdictional agreement that temporarily ended the strife.

Believing that the only permanent solution to the problems of farm workers lay in legislation, Chavez supported the passage of California's Agricultural Labor Relations Act (the first of its kind in the nation), which promised to end the cycle of misery and exploitation and ensure justice for the workers. These promises, however, proved to be short-lived as grower opposition and a series of hostile governors undercut the effectiveness of the law.

After 1976 Chavez led the union through a major reorganization, intended to improve efficiency and outreach to the public. In 1984 in response to the grape industry's refusal to control the use of pesticides on its crops, Chavez inaugurated an international boycott of table grapes.

For thirty years Chavez tenaciously devoted himself to the problems of some of the poorest workers in America. The movement he inspired succeeded in raising salaries and improving working conditions for farm workers in California, Texas, Arizona, and Florida.

Bibliography:

Jacques E. Levy, Cesar Chavez: Autobiography of La Causa (1975); Dick Meister and Anne Loftis, A Long Time Coming: The Struggle to Unionize America's Farm Workers (1977).

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/cesar-chavez#ixzz1uOhmgHdU


Not to be disrespectful toward Chavez...But My question is...Why didn't he fight like this ...for Mexicans in Mexico? I do not know of any Mexican national, who has shown bravery and courage to do for his own country, what Chavez tried to accomplish. We can talk human rights and compassion all day long... But the reality is that many, many Mexican nationals come to the US with complete disregard of U.S. Laws surrounding immigration... I bet you you if it Was Ireland or Germany or France coming over in droves the same way Mexico does, and if they took all the jobs away from the Mexicans... you know the Mexicans would raise a hissy fit... Its the blatant disrespect and inconsideration of these illegal immigrants which persuades me to support stiff immigration laws. [/b]
.. all I've been trying to say all along, is that the Mexicans are only laboring at jobs no white person will undertake, we need Mexicans here in the U.S. to provide us with goods and services that would not be affordable if the FRENCH or IRISH were doing the jobs... they the IRISH AND FRENCH would want unaffordable compensation for doing sh*t field work... when I lived in North Carolina Mexicans had replaced the negroes doing the tobacco cultivation/farming jobs.. as long as a Mexican wants to work, and have been told countless times, the farm managers absolutely adore the Mexican work ethic, they work their asses off, and white bigots are jealous I assume..

#172644 by BestGuitarist
Thu May 10, 2012 5:37 am
and this brings us full circle to what an actual person is worth per hour... why does a paper-pusher US Postal worker get $18.00 an hour to push papers/envelopes..?.. there is no resoning that is needed for that..the job is based on rote memory?.. if anything pat the Mexican field worker $18.00 an hour instead of 20 cents a bushel, for working in the blazing sun, getting gallstones/kidney stones from not being allowed to piss all day..blah blah blah... I'm mad as hell, and am not going to take it anymore!

#172645 by BestGuitarist
Thu May 10, 2012 5:49 am
and my final quip about this, if J HALEY and PaperDog don't like Mexicans or at least respect them, what the hell are you 2 doing living in El Paso and Houston?.. that was the home of Mexicans hundreds of years before gringoes moved there? why not just move to white man's land? say Michigan or Ohio or something lily white?..

#172646 by PaperDog
Thu May 10, 2012 5:55 am
.. all I've been trying to say all along, is that the Mexicans are only laboring at jobs no white person will undertake, we need Mexicans here in the U.S. to provide us with goods and services that would not be affordable if the FRENCH or IRISH were doing the jobs... they the IRISH AND FRENCH would want unaffordable compensation for doing sh*t field work... when I lived in North Carolina Mexicans had replaced the negroes doing the tobacco cultivation/farming jobs.. as long as a Mexican wants to work, and have been told countless times, the farm managers absolutely adore the Mexican work ethic, they work their asses off, and white bigots are jealous I assume..


1) Mexican Labor has historically provided less than stellar results when it comes to quality. The French and the Irish are too proud to let quality slip...They know it takes harder work to achieve quality results...Consequently , they wont do jobs where quality is secondary consideration... They do jobs that are more specialized and thus they demand better compensation. Mexican Workers exist here ...not because we don't want the jobs,.,., Its because we don't want to pay 50 bucks for Tupperware and 6 bucks for an orange.

2) Mexicans under bid the 'Negroes' No self-respecting American (Negro or otherwise) is gonna work like that.. And for the record.. Mexicans got nothing on the Negroes when it comes to enduring abuses... You better believe that a brother in America aint gonna tolerate no 2 dollars an hour.

3) Farm Managers adore the windfall profits they get from the savings they enjoy, by hiring Mexican labor for next to nothing... They don't give a rats ass about the laborers themselves. It took a Cesar Chavez to steo in on that nonsense...

You never answered my question... Why doesnt anybody fight like Chavez, for the Mexicans in Mexico.. ?

#172649 by JCP61
Thu May 10, 2012 8:45 am
J-HALEY wrote:
JCP61 wrote:der de der der

this is gay I'm going back to the pile..


I said "I am sorry" Obviously that is not enough? :lol:


oh this wasn't aimed at you Jeff,
I just thought that was the funniest south park I ever saw.

Being a construction worker I have to fight off the inclination to hate the Latino.
Cause their work ethic is only driven by one thing, the long line of other latinos waiting to take his job for 10 cents cheaper.
The quality of their work is pitiful.

I have to remember that we Irish were came here unwanted and were hated as well.
I have to remember that If I went to college and stayed out of the building trades I probably wouldn't think about Latino's much at all.
I'd probably being looking hard at Asians or middle easterners.

Now Texas and the border, that's another issue,
You guys who live there need to do what you feel is right for your state.
I wouldn't want to be the crossing guard for every migrant worker in the country.

Forget race,
there is only one issue here, cheap labor.
And in that arena china is a bigger threat to a decent life than Mexico.

#172652 by Paleopete
Thu May 10, 2012 11:54 am
Paper Dog you made an excellent point. I have no use for the slimeballs who hire these illegals either. The primary reason the US government has done so little about it is corporations that have tremendous political influence and want to keep them here for cheap labor. The primary reason the Mexican government does so little [at least I think so] is that they are getting rid of their riff raff and they know it. Then again corruption is such a major problem in the Mexican government it's hard to say. American corporations may be paying them to look the other way, who knows...it wouldn't surprise me at all, plenty corruption in ours too.

By contrast, I've known Mexican friends who came here and got their citizenship, worked and studied for it, learned English, did it the right way. Good people every one of them, and one in particular was a good friend and a great guy. He came here in 1963 or 64, did at least 2 years in Viet Nam in the Army, worked for the employment office, and didn't like the illegal immigrant situation any more than most natural born Americans do.

JCP61 also has a good point, it's difficult to find anything not marked "Made in China" any more, all of it is useless crap, and I've been concerned for a long time that China may be a bigger threat then just cheap goods undermining our economy and businesses sending their manufacturing there for the cheap labor. I'm starting to refuse to buy anything made in China if I can avoid it, since I've seen so much absolute crap from there at greatly inflated prices. My sister just broke her 3rd pair of glasses frames in less then a year, all made in China. None stepped on, dropped or sat on, just broke in no time under normal usage. The 3rd pair didn't last 2 months.. When she went in for replacements she refused to accept more Chinese frames, told them US Made ONLY...

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