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I can't understand the vocals...turn the damn instruments DOWN please...I still can't make out the words...please turn down...back off PLEASE...don't the words mean anything?...

FBob

Telling a lead guitarist that the vocals matter if often fruitless. My own brother was a major offender in that dept. Once he asked me to write some lyrics for something he'd put together.

I handed him the lyrics which he folded and stuck in his guitar case without reading. "I'm sure they're fine..." said he. And went back to playing so loud I could barely tune up.

Talbot

I was a major offender for years.

I still have my ole SUNN MODEL T, and a few weeks ago hooked it up for shits and giggles, man that thing is horribly loud, the problem to make it work you really have to get the tubes hot. So a lot of the problem is old school non master volume amps, these days most guitar amps can get a great tone at any volume you want.

But Ive learned that if the singer cant hear himself and the crowd cant that it hurts the overall value to all concerned.

These days, if we are playing loud and they say Im too loud I turn it down, the funny thing is ussually they actually tell me to turn up some.

Im with you Bob, and Im a loud guitarist, the vocals need to be front and center.

Our last gig we played its Only Rock N Roll by the stones, and the lead vocal is not the ussual for us anyway, Jagger kind of talks thru it, it was great cause me and the bassist both muffled down and you could hear every nuance of the vocals as clear as a bell, which on a song like that is important cause it doesnt really sit in time, it follows the vocals, the little "Stran-an-ge" part and you have to hear it to make it sound tight.

Any of you cover bands, I might add that Its Only Rock N Roll is a great vamp up type song, and our crowd just eats it up.

...and it's especially sad not to hear a good singer...

This is a very difficult topic for most musicians to understand. Perceived loudness. A few examples.
This garage band I have been jamming with for the last few months,,,, I tried using a 50 watt Roland and juicing it with a delay pedal. I brought my wireless and listened to what was going on 100 feet away. The drums were WAY louder than my little Roland CRANKED. The bass player kept asking everyone to keep it down so the vocals would come through. Funny he was the second loudest. The thing here is what you here when you are so close to it. I only bring my Mesa now, because at fifty watts on less than a 1/4 master and channel control at 1/4 it still has a perceived loudness much greater than the Roland. Many of these amps just add noise.
Another case, I went out to an open mic and jammed with a couple of cool guys at a local bar. Tiny amps and a laid back drummer. Thirty people in the place and I didn't even use the Mic to sing. I started to but I realized the levels we were playing at were low. My wife always says I sing to loud. One sound check my old band did at theater, the soundman asked me if I wanted my mic turned on. Every one yelled, he won't need it.

It's a difficult balance to achieve even when all whom participate are on the same page.
Another reason I have been working on ways to control the stage / monitor volumes for our band.
I figure the better the stage environment sounds it will be easier to transfer that to the mains and our audience.

I often hear "I can hear the singer" but can you listen to the words? Hearing somebody and understanding somebody are two different things. I've heard classic rock cover bands where the vocals are just noise. Everybody knows the words so maybe it doesn't matter. But most of the tunes I sing aren't mainstream and I always sing a few originals. Few people know the words so I feel it's really important. I can't seem to make this point important enough to other band members and it's my #1 reason for quitting a band.

Lets see on my Mesa, I have a Triple, but I set it on spongey mode, which cuts the power. My main channel the gain and master are at about 12 oclock, then I loop it thru the effects loop and use the effects loop to control the overall volume.

Im running that thru 2 4x12s.

Our last gig was on of the cleanest sounding Ive ever heard, the singer, bassist and I all have wireless systems and we all 3 went to the back of the room at one point and you could hear everything just clear as a bell, we are 3 piece so its not really that hard to do, but everyone has to work together for the overall sound. Ive got mine in the PA also, we havent been putting our bassist in the PA lately, just mic up the kick and snare, two little condensor overheads, I mic my cab with a 57, then we all have vocal mics so its a pretty simple setup.

When Im standing next to my amp it doesnt sound that loud, in fact Ive had other guys sit in that know me, and most of them say something to the effect, what happened to you? You used to be the loudest guitar player in the area, and you still got all of this sh*t, but it just doesnt sound as loud.

I think over time you just learn this, cause if your blaring too loud all the time noone will play with you longterm anyway.

Ive said on here before that when Im practicing by myself, I actually play my amp louder than I do at a gig, when Im by myself I want to move some pants legs with air, in the group context this is pointless to me.

Damn Guys I must be getting OLD!!!!!

Very interesting John. Those 2/12 cabs are great , I have one and I love it.

I also have one of their 4/12 cabs and when you get the chance to crank it, that cab rocks. Funny but you get two very different responses, even with the amp set the same.

You say you keep that effects loop choked down, I keep that wide open running through a studio Lexicon.

Mesa's are funny because the more you play with them, even just between channel and master you get a different sound. I find that they sound great only when you drive the main tubes,(el34s or 6l6s, not sure if thats right.) and the main 5U4GBs.

I know what your saying, my first guitar amp was an old WEBCOR tape recorder turned to input output playing out of 2 inch speakers.

Cool John, you keep rockin'.

Glenny Trouble J

Glenn actually the Rectifiers get thier sound mostly from the preamp tubes I called them about something one time and the tech at Mesa told me that. Ive got sets of 6L6s and EL34s, my triple has 6L6s, and my Roadster has the EL34s in it, I dont hear a huge difference, the 6L6s have a fuller sound whereas to my ears the EL34s have more sizzle to them and maybe more upper mid. I went thru the tube thing a few years ago, and you can make yourself crazy changing tubes for the grailtone, Ive found for me all I have to do is play with my amp eq to change it where I want it anyway.

Its a loop but they call it a global master, it also has a solo function. You can use the loop as a master, and then get an extra boost out of the solo function, no change in tone just an increase in DB.

I have the bottom mesa cab with the slant in it, and then this old Laney 4x12 that Ive had forever, they have different tonal quailitys to them, so Ive kinda gotten to where I use them both, not for volume but for tone.

I dont run anything in my loop, all my effects are stomp box varietys, I really dont need any, my amps sound so good that I could just go straight guitar to amp, but I like to mess up the sound everynow and then.

I have a Roadster Combo too its a rec with a sealed 2x12, damn thing weighs a ton, and it does have the same kinda thunk factor that the big 4x12 does, but the reverb and tubes rattle real bad in there so I dont use it very much.

Glen get out a manual the Rectifier tube has nothing to do with the actual sound, thats the coke bottle looking thing, it does give the amp more sag, instead of the silicone diodes, but its nowhere in the tone path.

Really good thought provoking post Bob.

For a band such as ours, where in the message is oh so much more important than the mode of delivery ... you really have my mind working overtime.

I wish I might be in two places at once ... not just physically speaking but metaphorically as well.

Physically being out front a little ways with my wireless is one issue.
But to mentally put myself in the psyche of the audience ?
Damn man, that's hard.
Already being so familiar as well as actually being " part " of the song myself.
It is immensely difficult to determine if what I am hearing is coming from my ears or from my mind via preconception.

Whew man, I need a nap.

AH!!! the value or invalue of a sound man. You are talking about why
they are necessary or unnecessary wether you know it or not. It is a skill.
You can not know what the audience hears unless you are out there.
You can not know wether you are out front or not unless you are out there.[/b]

Playing through a wireless is a great idea for a bunch of reasons. You can do more things to get the crowd going, less wires to trip over and some people think it improves their sound. But going around the venue and listening to the sound is a huge plus. I've never played with a sound man. I always ask the crowd to let me know how everything sounds. We usually don't have any problems but we don't have that many different frequencies to deal with as some rock bands do.