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So ever since I started paying attention to song construction (due to another thread in here), everything I listen to on the Radio is bitterly predictable.

Bars 1-8 - intro
Bars 9-36 - verse
....chorus
verse
.... chorus

bridge,
verse,
chorus / end


I was watching a movie last night and the tear-jerk moment was when the main character sings a song, and it was so predictible I started laughing out loud.

I can't stand the traditional patterns. They may sell, but if I can't stand their predicability, I can't enjoy writing that way. Ignorence is bliss, and the rich know how profit off their bliss, and the artist is too embarrassed to stoop that low.

haha.

I feel your pain. That's why I still love the stuff The Cure or The Smiths did where it was not so predictable when the vocals would start, etc. Radio depends on formulaic music, and many musicians are willing to provide it.

My questions -

Is it popular because it's good?

Is it popular because it's predictable & ppl need something they can depend on?

Is it popular because it's all most ppl ever get to hear? (i.e. it's fed to us until we accept it)

Is it just a fluke?



Frankly, there are lots of songs that don't fit the standard pattern you describe.

haha. I don't know - I was just venting cause now it's distracting. But in a nutshell, jellybeans are good cause they taste great. Eat a bag of em every day, and not so much anymore. The lyrics and rythem might be different and groovin, but once they fall into a predictable pattern like that, you start to wonder if they were writing that song cuz it rocks, or because it fits the pattern. I don't really care either way - it's just distracting to, is all I was saying

Chris

philbymon wrote:My questions -

Is it popular because it's good?

Is it popular because it's predictable & ppl need something they can depend on?

Is it popular because it's all most ppl ever get to hear? (i.e. it's fed to us until we accept it)

Is it just a fluke?



Frankly, there are lots of songs that don't fit the standard pattern you describe.

I think some songs can be repetitive but that can also be a beauty in some cases.
'12 Bar blues' apart from some really cracking musicians can be that way too at times, Rap, we know what some think about Country and the list goes on.

I liked Phil's answer frankly. Most likely this comes down to that gray area?

Do you listen to your stuff more than others? If you do, do you like that better because you have moved away from what you dislike? Could others tell even if you have?

This is something I've been working on a little while in the studio as of late. There is certainly a trick to balancing familiarity with surprise. If a song is too odd, the listener will lose interest. If it is too predictable, same result. These are generalities, of course, because (as Jimmy pointed out), tastes vary. Some people love Primus, for example, because that music makes them say WTF!!!. I listen to it, and say the same thing, but not because I'm enjoying it.
A funny thing that happens to me is that I will think "Screw it. I've got this cool bridge, and I'm only going to play it one time-make the litener wait for it!". Then, my friend Seth pulls me back down to Earth and says "No, it's a good hook, let's put it in the song earlier." I have to admit that 95% of the time, he's absolutely right.
Sometimes that pattern is what is right for the song. Other times, you should set it on fire and do something way out there. It depends on what works the best.

One of our songs is done in all major chords.
So much for the conventional approach.

Hi Joseph.
This sounds very refreshing, it must be nice to have someone who wants to talk about song makeup, kudos.

joseph6 wrote: Then, my friend Seth pulls me back down to Earth and says "No, it's a good hook, let's put it in the song earlier." I have to admit that 95% of the time, he's absolutely right. Sometimes that pattern is what is right for the song. Other times, you should set it on fire and do something way out there. It depends on what works the best.

Primus live is just good sounding.

When we LOOK at Primus, that's when we say WTF.

Yeah, Chip...it's VERY nice to get that kind of communication. In the studio, we are constantly thinking in terms of the "consumer", or how to keep the song interesting-in context to the listener's attention span (which is usually pretty short). I could go on all day about this (but I won't, I promise!). There is a real science to song arrangements.

It's funny, cuz a lot of us have probably shared that similar school of thought at one time or another:
"Play the intro. Now the verse. Now another verse. Now the chorus. Another verse. The chorus again. Play a lead over the verse. Chorus and out..."

I've done that myself hundreds of times-and it works (sort of). The truth is that this structure suggests that there are small details, and there really are not. When writing a song (or performing one, for that matter), EVERY little thing is important. That's a tough point to make to most folks.

Don't bitch about the formulae for musical construction.

If you don't like the verse where it is, move it and create something new.

Isn't that being unique and different? I thought that was the prog musicians' creedo.

I think most writers want to be successful commercially and that causes most to conform to pattern writing. I do this myself in most of my songs. The hook the melody and unique riffs within any song are what separate it from the crowd I believe. Like it or not you need to sell what is selling and leave your personal preferences for your own entertainment.

KLUGMO wrote:I think most writers want to be successful commercially and that causes most to conform to pattern writing. I do this myself in most of my songs. The hook the melody and unique riffs within any song are what separate it from the crowd I believe. Like it or not you need to sell what is selling and leave your personal preferences for your own entertainment.

I agree, song writing is a commodity. However, there is a demand for the element of surprise as well. People are growing increasingly laxadazical ( sp? ) in their quest for something new. The question is, who's up for the challenge?

I think the element of surprise is very rare. Maybe someone like Frank Zapa, Sting or Elton John and Bernie Taupin. Whoever they absolutely own their style of music. What do you think?

Chris4Blues wrote:So ever since I started paying attention to song construction (due to another thread in here), everything I listen to on the Radio is bitterly predictable.


verse
chorus
verse
chorus


haha.

That is funny Chris. The Verse/Chorus structure is one of the earliest dating back to 1400bc with the Huriann Hymns and Songs of Gilgamesh. Also, most songs in the Bible are arranged in the Refrain/Chorus order. People have been bored a very long time. Have you gotten into fusion or free form jazz?