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#95535 by CraigMaxim
Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:45 pm
neanderpaul wrote:

And I know through scripture that we can lose our salvation.




Really? Well, here's what I know...



John 10:27-30 “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.


Romans 8:38-39 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”


Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”


NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD!
(It's either true or it isn't)

NO ONE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF JESUS' HANDS!
(It's either true or it isn't)

SALVATION IS NOT DEPENDENT ON WORKS!
(It is either true or it isn't)



READ THIS CAREFULLY:

Hebrews 10:26-27 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”


At first glance, this verse appears to support the idea that you can lose salvation, and therefore EXPECT the judgement of hell.

But in actuality, this verse is showing THE PROBLEM with such a belief!

Namely...

That if your SALVATION was dependent upon whether you "kept on sinning" or not, there is a BIG PROBLEM.... "No sacrifice for sins is left".

Christ cannot die... AGAIN... for you, to fix your new need of a Savior, all over again.

NO ONE, and that means NO ONE, not even ourselves, can Snatch us from Christ's hands, or SEAPARATE us from the love of God once we have it.

You have been deceived.

I pray that you are truly saved. It's hard for me to know. Anyone believing in their own efforts for SALVATION or for MAINTAINING that salvation, is very likely to be lost, and to be the one that Jesus warns of... The one who did works in Jesus' name, the one who had a FORM OF GODLINESS, but denies the power of it's origin, the apostate churches, which APPEAR godly, but in the final hour, it is clear that they were putting on a SHOW, and that their HEARTS were not with God's heart. They were modern pharisees, totally in control (they think) of their own destiny by WHAT THEY DO, or DO NOT DO, rather than humbling themselves before God's throne, and HIM ALONE, being the power in their lives.

Ephesians 2:9 "....so that no one can boast"


The only way to INSURE that we cannot boast, is that we literally had NOTHING to do, from our own efforts, to OBTAIN salvation, nor to MAINTAIN salvation.

How is this possible?

Because ALL SIN comes from one source...

Being the Lord of my OWN LIFE, rather than GOD, MY CREATOR being the Lord of my life.

That's it. Period. Nothing more than that. That ONE SINGLE problem, is where ALL OTHER PROBLEMS come from.

The first sin in HISTORY, was Lucifer wanting to be Lord of his own life.

The first sin by HUMANS... was Adam and Eve wanting to be Lord of their own lives.

Coincidence?

Of course not.

IT IS - WHAT ALL SIN COMES FROM.

The Bible is EXPRESSLY AND PERFECTLY CLEAR, that ONLY GOD is the Savior, no other.

If I WORK for my salvation... if I WORK to maintain my own salvation...

"I AM MY OWN SAVIOR"

If I am my own Savior, and only God can save, then "I AM MY OWN GOD" and I have reversed the roles of Creator and created being. And I am REPEATING the sins of Lucifer first, and then Eve and Adam after him.

That is the statement a works-based person is literally telling God...

"I AM GOD" because "I AM SAVING MYSELF or MAINTAINING MY OWN SALVATION (same thing) BY MY OWN EFFORTS!"


Which is EXACTLY where the heart of boasting (Eph 2:9) comes from.


OF COURSE I will be proud of myself if I am following every jot, every tit in the law. It's like balancing on a railroad track and going as far as you can... I BEAT YOU BUDDY!!! I WENT FARTHER THAN YOU!!! HA HA... I WIN... I FEEL GREAT!!!

But we are STILL on railroad tracks dumbass! :shock:

No one can balance on them forever.

And a train may very well come along and crush us, even if were possible.

It is a balancing act that will result in FAILURE. Because it CANNOT be maintained FOREVER as long as we have PHYSICAL BODIES!

Reflect on this:

SIN IS NOT POSSIBLE once separated from a physical existence.

It is the NATURE of the physical world, that leads to sin.

Without it, WE WILL NOT SIN. PERIOD!

You and others with similar beliefs, fear the truth of Salvation being... TRULY BY GRACE ALONE, because it seems an INVITATION to sin, without fear. "Oh, I'm saved, so why not screw my neighbor's wife, and get drunk every night of the week... steal something if I have need of it... etc..." because I am saved anyway, and will not lose it... so I have no consequence!

But this is NOT A TRUE understanding of these things.

1) SOMEONE TRULY SAVED WILL NOT FEEL SUCH A THING. Once saved, the conscience becomes so strong, that we are CRUSHED by the sins we fall into. CRUSHED by our own conscience. It is UNBEARABLE to continue it as a lifestyle. We may sin, we may fall away for awhile, but we will not maintain it forever... it is TOO PAINFUL to the conscience now inside us. Like a high pitched noise to a dog, and the closer he gets to it, and the longer he stays, the more unbearable it becomes. We can't do it either. IT HURTS TOO MUCH. IT IS UNBEARABLE, and ONLY GETS MORE SO, the longer we stay away from what our conscience is CONSTANTLY drawing us back to.

2) THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES! Not the least of which is PHYSICAL DEATH, where we have temporarily lost God's protection, and can then forfeit our Earthly lives, or suffer some other consequence, because we are muting God's voice, and therefore miss, when He is trying to pull us AWAY from such dangerous situations. There is also the loss of Heavenly rewards and blessings, crowns and such (although these are metaphorical)

3) ONCE SEPARATED FROM THE PHYSICAL WORLD, we can no longer sin PERIOD. Not even little ones. It is the FLESH that leads us to sin. We over-eat, we drink too much alcohol, we are tempted by our neighbor's wife, we steal someone's possessions cause we want what they physically POSSESS.


Paul's statement above, that ONCE SAVED, it is not HIM (PAUL) that is now sinning, but HIS FLESHLY SIN NATURE doing the sinning, may seem a matter of semantics to some, but it is actually very profound.

Paul discovered what I also have.

That... IT IS FLESH... pulling us toward sin, and that there is a DIFFERENCE in the laws my SPIRIT serves and the ones my BODY serves. My body gets the urge for sex, EVEN IF I DON'T WANT IT TO!!!!

This is VERY IMPORTANT.

This shows quite clearly that there are in essence... TWO BEINGS that make us up... one being our flesh (which has it's own mind) and the second being our SPIRIT which is our true self, the one impervious to physical things.

How can I be divided in myself?

And yet, WE ALL, experience this anomaly.

The Apostle Paul is not saying that he "dabbles" in sin (hobby) no sir... he claims to be a SLAVE to it, my friends. The one who claims to be least among the Apostles, and yet who in fact is GREATEST among them, concerning works done, the movement spread through the world, the scriptures left behind for us to learn from.... NO EARTHLY MAN HAS DONE MORE for the Christian Faith than the Apostle Paul.

And yet, he is a "SLAVE" (his words) to it.

A slave to it.

His body lives it as a LIFESTYLE.

Yet, the Apostle Paul (unlike our Paul ;-) ) understands that this IS NOT what he DESIRES TO DO. His heart DOES NOT WANT to sin in his body, but he CANNOT HELP HIMSELF... there is ANOTHER LAW at work in his flesh, as contrasted with His SPIRIT (which is redeemed and saved, and MAINTAINED FOREVER by the one who now CONTROLS it... Our Savior, God, who is "Now Finally" - LORD OF OUR LIVES, which is what frees us from sin, from hell, from being slaves to sin... IN OUR HEARTS TOO.)

ALL PEOPLE ARE SLAVES TO THE FLESH.

We are animals in our flesh.

But the REDEEMED are no longer slaves to sin IN OUR HEARTS!

The lost CONTINUE BEING enslaved to sin in their FLESH -AND- IN THEIR HEARTS!

Which is why the SAVED PERSON feels a sexual urge, a "natural" urge (where the flesh is concerned anyway) and He FIGHTS WITHIN HIMSELF to deny it. To walk away, and not to succumb to his BODY'S WILL.

But the LOST PERSON relishes the urges of the flesh, and because they are "natural" he uses this to JUSTIFY the EVIL IN HIS HEART which cares NOT for what is right or wrong, but only cares about WHAT HE DESIRES FOR HIMSELF! NO MATTER HOW IT AFFECTS OTHERS, and eventually... THE WORLD!!!

.

#95629 by neanderpaul
Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:40 am
neanderpaul wrote:

And I know through scripture that we can lose our salvation.




CraigMaxim wrote: Really? Well, here's what I know...



John 10:27-30 “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.


"No one" being the key. No one can snatch them. But can they turn their back on the truth? Yes. Can they fall from Grace? Yes. There is still free will. Always.

The Bible does not contradict itself in the matter of man's salvation. The truth is man cannot be saved without obedience (Heb. 5:8,9) However, it is God's grace that saves. Man alone can never effect redemption Matt. 18:22-27. Nonetheless, man's obedience is indispensable in salvation (Acts 2:36-41).

Craig since the bible does not contradict itself your idea that we can't lose our salvation must be wrong.

CraigMaxim wrote:Romans 8:38-39 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”


Do you think that because he loves us he will go back on his word? Just because he fulfills his promise and casts us into outer darkness doesn't mean he doesn't love us. he loves us but will not let sin in to heaven. So that verse too is effectively refuted as showing we can't lose our salvation.

CraigMaxim wrote: Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”


While we can not earn salvation, works are required. In Titus 3:5 Paul says we are not saved by works but goes on to say we are saved...by the washing of regeneration..." Obviously, baptism is meant. In the text in which we are told "for by grace are ye saved," Paul says "through faith" Eph. 2:8. Grace is God's part: faith is man's part. Active, obedient faith is required Gal. 5:6, Jas. 2:24.

CraigMaxim wrote:NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD!
(It's either true or it isn't)


True - it can't separate us from his love but sin can separate us from him.

CraigMaxim wrote:NO ONE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF JESUS' HANDS!
(It's either true or it isn't)


True no one can snatch us. But we can turn from him.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith
.
CraigMaxim wrote: SALVATION IS NOT DEPENDENT ON WORKS!
(It is either true or it isn't)


Salvation is a free gift of God that requires obedience on our part. Otherwise MANY verses are contradicted. Such as

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

If we have no part in our salvation then all are saved which contradicts Matt 7:13

CraigMaxim wrote:READ THIS CAREFULLY:

Hebrews 10:26-27 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”


At first glance, this verse appears to support the idea that you can lose salvation, and therefore EXPECT the judgement of hell.



At first glance, at second glance and after thorough study it still says the same thing.


CraigMaxim wrote:You have been deceived.


You deceive yourself. You try to deceive others. Willfully or otherwise. One saved always saved is NOT in the bible. Neither is "the sinners prayer". You are not fed or encouraged by worshiping with a grounded family. You are left to your own devices after being deceived by the moonies.

CraigMaxim wrote: I pray that you are truly saved. It's hard for me to know.


It's hard for you to know?!! That's your ego again Craig. You CANT know my heart. Only God can.

CraigMaxim wrote: Anyone believing in their own efforts for SALVATION or for MAINTAINING that salvation, is very likely to be lost, and to be the one that Jesus warns of... The one who did works in Jesus' name, the one who had a FORM OF GODLINESS, but denies the power of it's origin, the apostate churches, which APPEAR godly, but in the final hour, it is clear that they were putting on a SHOW, and that their HEARTS were not with God's heart. They were modern pharisees, totally in control (they think) of their own destiny by WHAT THEY DO, or DO NOT DO, rather than humbling themselves before God's throne, and HIM ALONE, being the power in their lives.


The list of problems in that paragraph...

1. We do have a part in maintaining our salvation. You know, free will.
2. I don't deny the power of the origin.
3. My heart is one of obedience of and trust in God's written will
4. I do humble myself when I, unlike you, trust his word.


CraigMaxim wrote: Ephesians 2:9 "....so that no one can boast"


The only way to INSURE that we cannot boast, is that we literally had NOTHING to do, from our own efforts, to OBTAIN salvation, nor to MAINTAIN salvation.


Or perhaps we could simply not boast? Simply trust and obey. Following GOD'S plan of salvation is not works based. It is GOD'S plan.

This is clearly going to be the impasse.
You think we can't effect our salvation.
Yet the bible says we must do our part.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

CraigMaxim wrote: The Bible is EXPRESSLY AND PERFECTLY CLEAR, that ONLY GOD is the Savior, no other.


Yes.

CraigMaxim wrote:If I WORK for my salvation... if I WORK to maintain my own salvation...

"I AM MY OWN SAVIOR"


No, we are not our own savior. We are never the savior.
We must obey. We must work towards the goal.
Is faith a work? What about belief Craig? Baptism? All of these things are essential. And things WE do. That doesn't mean we are the savior.


CraigMaxim wrote: OF COURSE I will be proud of myself if I am following every jot, every tit in the law. It's like balancing on a railroad track and going as far as you can... I BEAT YOU BUDDY!!! I WENT FARTHER THAN YOU!!! HA HA... I WIN... I FEEL GREAT!!!

But we are STILL on railroad tracks dumbass! :shock:

No one can balance on them forever.


You bring reproach upon his name when you curse. There is a backspace button. I use it. You should try that. You are arguing supposedly for Christ and Christianity. Look at at your avatar. You are glorifying defiling, destroying the temple. Smoking is bad enough. I am ashamed of my sin and would certainly hide it until I could defeat it. You are glorifying and encouraging it by example IN a thread you claim to be fighting for truth in.

CraigMaxim wrote: You and others with similar beliefs, fear the truth of Salvation being... TRULY BY GRACE ALONE, because it seems an INVITATION to sin, without fear.


Not even close. I'm not afraid it's by Grace alone because I can read where faith, repentance, baptism, and obedience are all factors. And since...

Psalm 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

... then I know you can't pick a part or parts Craig likes and says that's all it takes.

I'm not afraid because I can read it for myself.


CraigMaxim wrote: 1) SOMEONE TRULY SAVED WILL NOT FEEL SUCH A THING. Once saved, the conscience becomes so strong, that we are CRUSHED by the sins we fall into. CRUSHED by our own conscience. It is UNBEARABLE to continue it as a lifestyle. We may sin, we may fall away for awhile, but we will not maintain it forever... it is TOO PAINFUL to the conscience now inside us. Like a high pitched noise to a dog, and the closer he gets to it, and the longer he stays, the more unbearable it becomes. We can't do it either. IT HURTS TOO MUCH. IT IS UNBEARABLE, and ONLY GETS MORE SO, the longer we stay away from what our conscience is CONSTANTLY drawing us back to.


By your own words then you are not saved. If you were the crushing guilt of destroying your body with tobacco would have stopped you.

CraigMaxim wrote: 2) THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES! Not the least of which is PHYSICAL DEATH, where we have temporarily lost God's protection, and can then forfeit our Earthly lives, or suffer some other consequence, because we are muting God's voice, and therefore miss, when He is trying to pull us AWAY from such dangerous situations.


Yes sin has consequences now and later.

CraigMaxim wrote: There is also the loss of Heavenly rewards and blessings, crowns and such (although these are metaphorical)


Have any scriptures to back that up? In case you haven't noticed first opinions chapter Craig never has any weight with me.

CraigMaxim wrote: 3) ONCE SEPARATED FROM THE PHYSICAL WORLD, we can no longer sin PERIOD. Not even little ones. It is the FLESH that leads us to sin. We over-eat, we drink too much alcohol, we are tempted by our neighbor's wife, we steal someone's possessions cause we want what they physically POSSESS.


Agreed.

CraigMaxim wrote:Paul's statement above, that ONCE SAVED, it is not HIM (PAUL) that is now sinning, but HIS FLESHLY SIN NATURE doing the sinning, may seem a matter of semantics to some, but it is actually very profound.

Paul discovered what I also have.

That... IT IS FLESH... pulling us toward sin, and that there is a DIFFERENCE in the laws my SPIRIT serves and the ones my BODY serves. My body gets the urge for sex, EVEN IF I DON'T WANT IT TO!!!!

This is VERY IMPORTANT.

This shows quite clearly that there are in essence... TWO BEINGS that make us up... one being our flesh (which has it's own mind) and the second being our SPIRIT which is our true self, the one impervious to physical things.

How can I be divided in myself?

And yet, WE ALL, experience this anomaly.



Yeah, the spirit wars against the flesh.

#95631 by CraigMaxim
Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:59 am
neanderpaul wrote:
Sure, I heard that term in a Eurythmics song! :lol: But liike many other terms you can't find in the bible..... pope, rapture, etc etc I don't need to consider it.




Can't find in the... what?

LOL

The word "Bible" is not found in the Bible either Paul.

But you still use that term. ;-)

.

#95633 by neanderpaul
Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:11 am
:wink:

#95637 by Starfish Scott
Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:17 am
When you folks figure out who is right, let us field troops know so we can start to mobilize. lol

I am starting to practice now.. "Who do you worship"?

Wrong answer : CHOP.

lol (you think I am kidding)(not)

I figure we could push most of Europe and finish up with Asia. lol

#95654 by philbymon
Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:15 pm
Oh hell! You two STILL at it?

LMFAO!

Just don't nobody try to tell ME who god hates cuz there ain't a one of ya what has a frikken clooooooo!

And murtherfore, if you THINK you know what's on god's mind, may I direct you here - http://www.yikers.com/video_we_are_douchebags.html - so's you may join up with others like yourself.

Far as I can tell, all bets are off on the christian god. He changed direction 180 degrees from the Old to the New Testaments in several areas, did he not? Stoneable offenses, meat on Friday, sacrificial animals, banking at your local church, all of it & more suddenly changed. Who's to say what he's gonna do next? YOU?!?!?!? MWAHAHAHAHAAH!!!! And just who the f*ck are YOU?

#95657 by neanderpaul
Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:18 pm
Guys I know it's crazy to you. Craig and I can't help but respond to each other. We both feel a strong conviction. I sigh when I see a huge Craig post that I am convicted to respond to.

All I can ask is you let us. I just don't read the political threads. If it's annoying just ignore us. Sorry and thanks.

#95667 by Starfish Scott
Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:43 pm
Why would anyone complain about what YOU feel strongly about?

No big thing to me. I read all. I judge none. (well except for the musical portion of our show) lol And all that is, you guessed it, IMO.

my opinion= negligible. (I don't think any creative personality wants to hear negativity of any kind other than the constructive variety.)(we all like something different)

Say what you want to, it's a forum and some of us live cheap and interested by what others write, right, wrong, grey area, it doesn't matter.

Scream it from the mountain top, if you like. I'll listen enough to form my own ideas to be sure.

#95684 by philbymon
Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:52 pm
Same here, Paul...I just can't help but interject my nonsense occasionally...it's yet another one of them there personality faults o' mine!

#95691 by Silverfoot
Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:29 pm
This is all well and good, but I think one of you guys should have clued poor Bob in to who Madonna is-about two pages ago. Now he has to "fish" around on wikipedia to get the answer (more questions left unanswered, great!)... :lol:

#95694 by jimmydanger
Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:43 pm
Yes, and he also now thinks Eurythmics did "Rapture". It was Blondie, but I'm not getting involved, I'm just a heathen-sinner guitar player.

#95701 by neanderpaul
Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:23 pm
joseph6 wrote:This is all well and good, but I think one of you guys should have clued poor Bob in to who Madonna is-about two pages ago. Now he has to "fish" around on wikipedia to get the answer (more questions left unanswered, great!)... :lol:

:lol: :lol:
jimmydanger wrote:Yes, and he also now thinks Eurythmics did "Rapture". It was Blondie, but I'm not getting involved, I'm just a heathen-sinner guitar player.

:lol: :lol:

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