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#91112 by Dessalines
Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:27 pm
Not sure what question you're asking but isn't our justice system one of those things that we think makes this a great country? If so, should we not try them according to what we say our ideals are? Isn't the fight with the terrorists about ideals? Ours vs. theirs? If so, don;t we have the better set of ideals a great deal of which is to be found in our laws and procedures?

If you are implying that our justice system cannot arrive at the correct result based on the law and the evidence, then I would say that you have a problem with American jurisprudence going back to Magna Carta, where out rights began. If that is the case then perhaps your solution is just execute them. That is what they do isn't it? No trial, no evidence, no judge, no jury, just a bunch of guys in a room who cut off your head and videotape the act for dissemination on a web site. Is that how we should do it? Would that be justice in your estimation? In my estimation such a process would make us no better than they are.

Insofar as security is concerned in the city of New York, can you think of a place that is more secure at this point than lower Manhattan? Finally, the Attorney General, A native New Yorker, is right when he says the symbolism of doing it there is huge. Are we so afraid that we think we cannot try, hold and execute such people after proper due process?

However, if you're only making a weak political point, then... Oh well...

I've got to ask these questions, because the one you ask has no answer unless you answer these questions.

#91149 by philbymon
Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:21 pm
Read the article.

I'm merely posing the question - "Is it even POSSIBLE for justice to exist for these ppl at this point in time?"

Consider the man who was arrested, tortured & interrogated by Al Qaida & released on suspicion of being an American operative, only to be arrested & interrogated & tortured by US, because we determined that he was a "security risk" after spending so much time with our enemy!

Keep in mind that Gitmo is the only prison of this sort that we really have any true knowledge of, & that's pretty limited. There are others.

These ppl, many of whom have been detained for 7 years or more, are finally getting their moment in court. It doesn't really look to me like we've been following our own rules concerning them, but who am I to judge, eh?

Brag as you will about your "great country," your "better ideals," your juris prudence & great history of justice going back to the Magna Carta, but, as I see these ppl detained for the better part of a decade with no due process, no voice in the system, & no place to turn, all I can ask is - "is THIS justice?"

Since the new administration, 25 ppl have been released because they were either found to be innocent or not guilty. In many of these cases, all they were detained for was a hint or rumor of activity, with zero proof.

Of course, after they've spent all that time in an illegal American prison, they now have nowhere to go. They cannot return to their former lives, or in some cases even their countries of origin. If they do return, will they be accepted by their countrymen, after all the years of "American influence?" Is it even safe for them to return? But that's not OUR problem, is it?

This is a sad sorry state of affirs that shames me as an American.

There are questions that we need to ask, & we need to be on guard for this type of gov't activity in the future.

Yeah, so much for "justice." These ppl got even less of it than I did the last time I was in court.

#91153 by Hayden King
Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:42 pm
Many many things about this country now shame me. Many! How can one be proud to be an American with the way our leaders show themselves to the world as dirty underhanded and seemingly devoid of compassion?

#91155 by Kramerguy
Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:19 pm
until we can unite, there's no way to even stand. Don't think for a moment that our leaders haven't been intentionally keeping americans divided and ignorant.

It's almost funny, how Obama is lecturing the Chinese people on censorship, when they know EXACTLY what it's like to live somewhere that censors everything. We amercians are so unbelievably fooled into thinking our press is free and unbiased, and that we are 'well informed'- that we are actually less informed than any average chinaman or woman.

Do Americans know that all the other modern western Democracies in the world have some form of national health care--either a state-run system like that in the UK or a single-payer model like that in Canada, or some hybrid like they have in France or Switzerland--and that in all those countries, the systems are so popular that they have survived decades of conservative governments? No. Our corporate media instead report on the crank critics of those systems and allow us to believe they are hated by their citizens.

Do Americans know that the US no longer boasts the best standard of living in the world--or even close? No. Because the American media continue to portray the US as "number one."

#91157 by Chippy
Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:35 pm
Oh Golly Gosh! :D
My first of only three posts today. (Trying to cut down).

Here here! It is in fact your media that ruins things for most everyone over here. I know people I've talked to have similar views to your post and I've not asked, they just told. Nothing seems straight, as it is, as it SHOULD be told. There is a bias in reporting as big as a bull-whip and that whip is used often, too often.

The sad pity though is that if folks only wander across borders they will know nothing of lands over the waters but what other folk tell them. There are many instances but this would take months and I don't want to start an argument frankly.

America can be such a GOOD place, it really can be too. It has so much potential, most people are really great to talk to when you get to know them too.

Yup squarely in the face of News and Adverts, THE SAME Adverts/News every 7 minutes and across EVERY SINGLE channel when it comes. It reminds me of 1984 sometimes. Oh and the YOU'RE GONNA DIE adverts that are real great with caring actor trained faces.

There was a WORLD POLL on where the best places where to live in the World? (No nothing to do with baseball). I forget where America came but it wasn't near the top at all.

I'm one of you guys. I want you to know that too but I come from a different place and have seen different things, lots of different things.

Rant mode post 1 complete. :D

Kramerguy wrote:Do Americans know that the US no longer boasts the best standard of living in the world--or even close? No. Because the American media continue to portray the US as "number one."

#91164 by Hayden King
Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:27 pm
I think (not totally sure though) that we came in 43rd. In many area's we came in even lower.
No THIS IS NOT THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!
It just makes me want to laugh when people still say that. They have no clue; because that is insured!
Our beautiful country has allowed a few twisted individual's and decadent families (rockefellers, rothchilds) to turn us into a monster that terrorizes the rest of the world.

BTW George Orwell didn't just happen to call it on the future back in the 50's; he was a member of one of the secret societies that have been planning and manipulating the future for the world.

Make the world a better place = put a globalist and a eugenicist together and seal em up in a cave with one piece of chicken and let em fight for it.

#91174 by Dessalines
Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:14 pm
philbymon wrote:Read the article.

I'm merely posing the question - "Is it even POSSIBLE for justice to exist for these ppl at this point in time?"

Consider the man who was arrested, tortured & interrogated by Al Qaida & released on suspicion of being an American operative, only to be arrested & interrogated & tortured by US, because we determined that he was a "security risk" after spending so much time with our enemy!

Keep in mind that Gitmo is the only prison of this sort that we really have any true knowledge of, & that's pretty limited. There are others.

These ppl, many of whom have been detained for 7 years or more, are finally getting their moment in court. It doesn't really look to me like we've been following our own rules concerning them, but who am I to judge, eh?

Brag as you will about your "great country," your "better ideals," your juris prudence & great history of justice going back to the Magna Carta, but, as I see these ppl detained for the better part of a decade with no due process, no voice in the system, & no place to turn, all I can ask is - "is THIS justice?"

Since the new administration, 25 ppl have been released because they were either found to be innocent or not guilty. In many of these cases, all they were detained for was a hint or rumor of activity, with zero proof.

Of course, after they've spent all that time in an illegal American prison, they now have nowhere to go. They cannot return to their former lives, or in some cases even their countries of origin. If they do return, will they be accepted by their countrymen, after all the years of "American influence?" Is it even safe for them to return? But that's not OUR problem, is it?

This is a sad sorry state of affirs that shames me as an American.

There are questions that we need to ask, & we need to be on guard for this type of gov't activity in the future.

Yeah, so much for "justice." These ppl got even less of it than I did the last time I was in court.




In large measure you are talking about history here and it is history that I assure you I am very familiar with and see with as jaundiced an eye as you do.

BTW, it isn't just my justice system or my ideals, they are ours, unless West Virginia has left the union. Those things include you. You are a citizen, yes? Some of what you write sounds to me as if you were divorcing yourself from all of that, or do I misunderstand?

If you are asking me if the people imprisoned at Guantanamo have received justice, the answer is no, not yet. Justice is the equal application of standards across a wide human spectrum. There has been no application of any real legal standards for those detainees.

Should some of them be held to account? Yes.

Are the cases of others just huge inhuman mistakes? Apparently so.

However, is it not a good thing that the issue of the people at Guantanamo is being addressed, finally? A lot of people don't think so, they think they should all just be left to rot. I think justice not only can be served, it needs to be. Can justice be provided to the guilty and the innocent that have been imprisoned there? Yes, it can and hopefully it will. Justice to me is not simple retribution, it is a search for the truth by applying equal standards in a court of law or some other legal proceeding, the operative word being legal.

Actually I think we are pretty much in agreement but I could be wrong.

#91186 by philbymon
Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:49 pm
In order for justice to be served, imo, the 7 yrs need to be addressed & paid for by our gov't. The prisoners who are innocent should be publicly absolved of all crimes, & offered citizenship, free & clear, once their lack of guilt can be determined. We owe these ppl, for destroying the lives they were living.

This action was not the result of any war. These men are not POW's. They have been virtually kidnapped & held without any recourse for 7 years.

I am too shamed by this to accept that I could be a part of it, Des. I didn't vote those ppl in, & I try my best not to back them in any way.

Yes, the LACK of justice for these ppl is being addressed now, & that is a good thing. Justice, however, will undoubtedly not be served in the end.

#91193 by CraigMaxim
Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:10 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/opinion/26davis.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Op-Ed Contributor
The Guantánamo I Know
By MORRIS D. DAVIS
Published: June 26, 2007
Arlington, Va.

LINDSEY GRAHAM
, a Republican senator from South Carolina, is right: “The image of Guantánamo Bay and the reality of Guantánamo Bay are completely different.” It is disappointing that so many embrace a contrived image. Reality for Guantánamo Bay is the daily professionalism of its staff, the humanity of its detention centers and the fair and transparent nature of the military commissions charged with trying war criminals. It is a reality that has been all but ignored or forgotten.

The makeshift detention center known as Camp X-Ray closed in early 2002 after just four months of use. Now it is overgrown with weeds and serves as home to iguanas. Yet last week ABC News published a photo online of Camp X-Ray as if it were in use, five years after its closing.

Today, most of the detainees are housed in new buildings modeled after civilian prisons in Indiana and Michigan. Detainees receive three culturally appropriate meals a day. Each has a copy of the Koran. Guards maintain respectful silence during Islam’s five daily prayer periods, and medical care is provided by the same practitioners who treat American service members. Detainees are offered at least two hours of outdoor recreation each day, double that allowed inmates, including convicted terrorists, at the “supermax” federal penitentiary in Florence, Colo.

Standards at Guantánamo rival or exceed those at similar institutions in the United States and abroad. After an inspection by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in March 2006, a Belgian police official said, “At the level of detention facilities, it is a model prison, where people are better treated than in Belgian prisons.”

Critics liken Guantánamo Bay to Soviet gulags, but reality does not match their hyperbole. The supporters of David Hicks, the detainee popularly known as the “Australian Taliban,” asserted that Mr. Hicks was mistreated and wasting away. But at his March trial, where he pleaded guilty to providing material support to a terrorist organization, he and his defense team stipulated he was treated properly. Mr. Hicks even thanked service members, and as one Australian newspaper columnist noted, he appeared in court “looking fat, healthy and tanned, and cracking jokes.”

Some imply that if a defendant does not get a trial that looks like Martha Stewart’s and ends like O. J. Simpson’s, then military commissions are flawed. They are mistaken. The Constitution does not extend to alien unlawful enemy combatants. They are entitled to protections under Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which ensures they are afforded “all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.”

Justice John Paul Stevens, in the Hamdan decision that rejected an earlier plan for military commissions, observed that Article 75 of the Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions defines the judicial guarantees recognized as indispensable. A comparison of Article 75 and the Military Commissions Act of 2006 shows military commissions provide the fundamental guarantees.

Each accused receives a copy of the charges in his native language; outside influence on witnesses and trial participants is prohibited; the accused may challenge members of the commission; an accused may represent himself or have assistance of counsel; he is presumed innocent until guilt is established beyond a reasonable doubt; he is entitled to assistance to secure evidence on his behalf; he is not required to incriminate himself at trial and his silence is not held against him; he may not be tried a second time for the same offense; and he is entitled to the assistance of counsel through four stages of post-trial appellate review ending at the United States Supreme Court.

One myth is that the accused can be excluded from his trial and convicted on secret evidence. The administrative boards that determine if a detainee is an enemy combatant and whether he is a continuing threat may consider classified information in closed hearings outside the presence of the detainee. But military commissions may not. The act states, “The accused shall be permitted ... to examine and respond to evidence admitted against him on the issue of guilt or innocence and for sentencing.” Unless the accused chooses to skip his trial or is removed for disruptive behavior, he has the right to be present and to confront all of the evidence.

Many critics disapprove of the potential admissibility of evidence obtained by coercion and hearsay. Any statement by a person whose freedom is restrained by someone in a position of authority can be viewed as the product of some degree of coercion. Deciding how far is too far is the challenge. I make the final decision on the evidence the prosecution will introduce. The defense may challenge this evidence and the military judge decides whether it is admitted. If it is admitted, both sides can argue how much weight, if any, the evidence deserves. If a conviction results, the accused has the assistance of counsel in four stages of post-trial appellate review. These are clearly robust safeguards.

The Military Commissions Act says hearsay is admissible unless it is challenged. The party raising the challenge must persuade the military judge that the probative value of the evidence is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice, confusion of the issues, or misleading the commission, among other reasons. While this standard permits admission of some evidence that would not be admissible in federal courts, the rights afforded Americans are not the benchmark for assessing rights afforded enemy combatants in military tribunals.

There is no ban on hearsay among the indispensable rights listed in the Geneva Conventions. Nor is there a ban on hearsay for the United Nations-sanctioned war crimes tribunals, including the International Criminal Court, the International Criminal Tribunals for the Former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, and the Special Court for Sierra Leone. The Nuremberg trials also did not limit hearsay evidence. Simply stated, a ban on hearsay is not an internationally recognized judicial guarantee.

Guantánamo Bay is a clean, safe and humane place for enemy combatants, and the Military Commissions Act provides a fair process to adjudicate the guilt or innocence of those alleged to have committed crimes. Even the most vocal critics say they do not want to set terrorists free, but they scorn Guantánamo Bay and military commissions and demand alternatives. The facts show the current alternative is worth keeping.


Morris D. Davis, a colonel in the Air Force, is the chief prosecutor in the Defense Department’s Office of Military Commissions.

#91194 by philbymon
Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:21 pm
That sounds really peachy, but I can't help but note that there has been no trials until very recently, & some are still pending, for ppl who have been locked up for 7 years, away from their families & friends & careers.

I don't care if you fed 'em caviar every frikken day if we have stolen from them the simple basic human right of freedom, which we as a country like to spout off about so much.

#91195 by Chippy
Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:24 pm
Craig I'm done here.
I think what you are doing is opening up wounds that are trying to heal but you just won't let them heal at any pace will you? You are totally single minded and intolerant of anyone else's view but your own for the most part.

When I joined Bandmix I joined American Music, not to receive a liturgy, though I'm sure you'll be on your own podium/platform sometime.

Mate.......... I just had enough of you and your cut and pasting.
No harm to you at any time, just really tired of you.

Time to sleep, time to dream, time to see.

Cheers.
Chipfryer.

#91197 by philbymon
Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:26 pm
Chippy, I was the one "opening old wounds" here. not Craig. He simply responded.

I'm sorry to have offended you, but this was something I found to be of interest to me.

#91198 by Chippy
Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:33 pm
Remember sand and how you played in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one remembers these days! I do! I remember almost everything. Not your fault and this is not a tantrum!

There are many likenesses. Some of them can be attributed to light sources, energy even vacuum to the uninitiated, some even come on TV where there are apparent DOTS in the air. If I had a Dollar for every time someone has said that I'm different, weird or special I'd be? Well I'd probably have given it away. :cry:

I really am tired of this BS.

Oh here comes the wind.
No worries Phil. no one else either.


philbymon wrote:Chippy, I was the one "opening old wounds" here. not Craig. He simply responded.
I'm sorry to have offended you, but this was something I found to be of interest to me.

#91218 by fisherman bob
Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:37 am
I don't get it. We are in a STATE OF WAR. The enemy is trying to KILL US. They have declared war on us. The detainees at Gitmo are prisoners of war. They don NOT have the same rights as citizens of the UNited States, NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE FROM. They DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO A CIVIL TRIAL. They are people who have vowed to KILL AMERICANS. They need to be tried in a military tribunal and SUMMARILY EXECUTED IF FOUND GUILTY. They also need to be water boarded to extract information so that we can abort future terror attacks aginst the United States. The state of Israel PERMANENTLY HUNTS DOWN TERRORISTS AND CAPTURES AND KILLS THEM. THAT IS HOW THEY SURVIVE. WE HAVE TO GET WITH THAT PROGRAM. War is Hell my friends. We need to keep killing as many of them as possible until they surrender. That is what war is all about. Trying them in a civilian courtroom is INSANITY. They are not like the poor slob who robs the local Quiktrip. They are bent on killing as many of us as possible to further gain their Islamic faith. THEY HAVE DECLARED WAR ON US AND HAVE YET TO SURRENDER. DOESN'T ANYBODY GET IT? Civil trials in New York City? Unbelievable. FDR, Douglas McArthur, Harry Truman, etc. are turning over in their graves right now...

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