General Music Chat

jook, this thread went south fast, so I jumped ship.. John Paul would not sign the pact in blood..

I've got his Thunder Thief CD. Have you heard it?

"Ice Fishing At Night" cracks my kids up.

no, but I bet it's a good listen.. Mickey Most is the guy responsible for Page and Jones meeting at the studio in 1960's.. they both played on Donovan "Hurdy Gurdy Man" album I think

Yeah but you jumped from Jimmy Page to Billy Idol to Steely Dan in a matter of a couple of hours!! I've been keeping up w/ you all afternoon between messages to a software analyst.

yes, but it's all tying together ..Billy Idol and his guitarist Steve Stevens had a signature Ray Gun / machine gun sound which was spawned from your Hendrix Machine Gun post.. and it was a unique unheard of "sound" back in the 1980's.. so it was musical history in the making, and Steely Dan Aja comment was from reading a facebook friend's link on timeline.. I even purchased Aja this afternoon for a $1.99 today.. CD format

I seriously can't figure out why you think that would be hard to imitate?

Ted, I think the point is this- it is easy to imitate but it is VERY difficult to play authentically. IOW- a classical Indian player would listen to one of my ragas and laugh in my face. It takes a lifetime to master this music, regardless to how it sounds. The first thing you have to do is learn how to tune the damn thing. Then you have to learn the scales (which are much more complicated than equal temperament).

sorry, ted... the idea you put forth about any of the musicians here being able to master that piece in two wks is way out there, bro.

there's A LOT MORE going on there than just bending some notes on big frets over a drone. Classical Indian music is waaaaaay different than what us westerners and casual listeners of "world music" are used to hearing and understanding on a deeper level.

it's easy for those who've not played it or listened to much of it to simply dismiss it.... c'mon,how hard can it be...it's all ONE CHORD???!!. well, if you're looking only on the surface in a superficial way...yeah, some might see it that way.

but, within that one chord there's a complete microtonal world going on. and that's even before you get into all the very complicated and hip time stuff that's going on. i honestly don't know if Page can play music that moves between all the different permutations of their compound time moves.....it ain't like playing straight common time (4/4) or even something that's in five or seven.

i'm by no means an expert on this music nor do i play one on TV, but i have boatloads of respect for those who can play this stuff.....even what appears (on the surface)to be a "simpler" and slower piece.

and as for fast....that don't mean sh*t to me. that's never been the measure for anything off of the racetrack for me.

J has shared some of his tunes w/ me and believe me when I say, that cat is one of the best musicians I've ever heard. He definitely isn't a poser. He's a composer.

like jook....i've heard a bunch of his stuff....but he's also shared some of his stuff on here from time to time. and not only is he an excellent composer...he's also a very capable and talented multi instrumentalist.

there have been some very talented musicians over the yrs here at BM but overall....i put him at the top of my list.

Bwa ha ha ha! He has no idea Ted. Yod is the most successful of all the musicians on this forum 10 times over!

I suppose that would depend on your definition of "success".

Thanks Jooks and Planetguy!! You are both too kind!

Though I have been inching in that direction, I do not think I would be able to imitate her very well anytime soon, if ever,
Many of those note bends she is accurately articulating very distinct scale steps in the bends.
If you can't do that then you can't play the music. Playing fast is secondary to hitting the proper note with the right inflection.
As Jooks points out, you at least need to know which of the 7 or 8 scale steps out of 22 steps, to use for the tune ... it is usually not a major or minor scale.

Dayne suggested "Jimmy Page most under-rated guitarist around"

I chimed in with my opinion that Page was over rated and in my opinion "Black Mountainside"
was not all that amazing compared to other modal music.
I posted the link to Mita Nag since I had just heard her play for the first time and was impressed by the depth of her playing.
Page's playing to someone familiar with Indian and Persian music, sounds like a crude caricature at best.

That's my opinion ... NOoooooo Blasphemy!!! how dare I speak anything but praise for Saint Jimmy!
But my opinion is deemed invalid because Page is "objectively recognized" as the greatest! (by his fans)

In the case of "Black Mountainside" it sounds like 90% of the innovation there belongs to Davey Graham, who, in my opinion, also plays modal style much better than Page, and did so well before him.

Yod's instance that Indian music has no innovators is just another testament to his tendency to boldly speak out in utter ignorance.

Oh ... and a zillion kids imitate Page, so it must not too terribly difficult to imitate him either ... with a couple weeks of practice of course.

I actually like the Led Zeppelin II studio version of Black Mountainside better than the version posted here..

Mark, it's a different style but if you watched that video, Nag is only using one or two of her left-hand fingers and doing a very simple picking with her right. She's playing a slow song in an open tuning. Sorry but that ain't no big deal. Easy to imitate for any guitarist worth his salt.

She's obviously more authentic than an englishman, but if Page had dedicated his life to playing Indian music, he would be far past her by his late teens. As it is, he can do a decent imitation of the genre because it's not difficult to play on one string with an open tuning. Let's see her rip through "Since I've Been Loving You" and I'll concede.

Page's playing to someone familiar with Indian and Persian music, sounds like a crude caricature at best.

Yet he does a decent imitation, and knows how to play a drone on an open tuned instrument.

In the case of "Black Mountainside" it sounds like 90% of the innovation there belongs to Davey Graham, who, in my opinion, also plays modal style much better than Page, and did so well before him.

Yod's instance that Indian music has no innovators is just another testament to his tendency to boldly speak out in utter ignorance.

Oh ... and a zillion kids imitate Page, so it must not too terribly difficult to imitate him either ... with a couple weeks of practice of course.

Dude your comprehension really suffers badly.

None of that is true, you're just butt-hurt because your point was slapped down so easily.

1. Page can play Davey Graham. Show me Davey Graham playing Page and we can compare them.

2. I never said Indian music has no innovators. I said the woman you posted wasn't breaking any new ground. I clearly said you cannot judge someone by what comes after them, but by what came before. She is an imitator of 6 generations and has had many years of practice droning on an open tuned instrument. Where is the groundbreaking new sound in her music? What did she do to revolutionize the genre? No crime in only being a great imitator...just doesn't compare to what Page did in revolutionizing rock music worldwide.

3. A zillion people can imitate Page and a billion Indians can imitate Nag. Again, you purposely avoid the point.


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sorry, ted... the idea you put forth about any of the musicians here being able to master that piece in two wks is way out there, bro.

You too?

I said imitate...copy...reproduce a facsimile. Nothing about "master the genre in 2 weeks"

What he said was that she "blows Page away 1000 times over". If you agree with that, you just lost all credibility as a musician.

there's A LOT MORE going on there than just bending some notes on big frets over a drone. Classical Indian music is waaaaaay different than what us westerners and casual listeners of "world music" are used to hearing and understanding on a deeper level. it's easy for those who've not played it or listened to much of it to simply dismiss it....

I play a lot of world music with world musicians. The guy I use for tar is Yaron Cherniak, is one of the best in the middle east. It's not like I'm your typical rock guitar player doing Lynard Skynard and AC DC

Actually I don't even consider myself a guitarist...I'm a singer and songwriter who accompanies myself on a guitar. But I know what great is because that's who I hire. For recording indian music, I'd much rather have Rag than Page...but that takes nothing away from Page's ability on a stringed instrument.

She simply can't touch him, except in one limited style.

i'm by no means an expert on this music nor do i play one on TV, but i have boatloads of respect for those who can play this stuff.....even what appears (on the surface)to be a "simpler" and slower piece.

I have respect for it too. I also have respect for other forms of music and can make an objective observation about relative ability.

and as for fast....that don't mean sh*t to me. that's never been the measure for anything off of the racetrack for me.

Fast isn't the ultimate goal, but someone who can play great and fast (if the song calls for it) has more musical ability than someone who can only play great.

Whether someone likes it or not is subjective.

Here's a guy playing a fast song, so we can tell if 'es any good or not
https://youtu.be/uAA8RyMjj9A

holy crap...that guy's tone is ridiculous!!!!! wow! those low ones sound killer.

unfortunate that he's only using one or two fingers on his left hand.....soooo much less impressive!

yeah but Big Jim Sullivan is a better sitar player.. yep

Going to a music school must have been a novel idea as Big Jim had been playing guitar on sessions since 1957, resulting in his presence on more UK hits than anyone else. He studied with a famous Indian player who gave Jim the necessary insight to be a creditable player. The result was Jim being asked to record even more sessions as the Sitar became a de rigeur instrument on virtually all mid 60's rock pop records. He taught Jimmy Page, took his Sitar over to George Harrison's Esher pad to enlighten the Beatle. So we come to 1967 and Mercury Records decide to cash in on the raga craze and take from Big Jim an entire LPs worth of where Sitar met Rock. The contents are a perfect blend of late 60's pop with the Tabla & Sitar sound and arrangements. Bonus tracks are included from two albums Big Jim made with Production Library De Wolfe Music - "The Sounds of India" (DWLP 3060) and "The Wild One" (DWLP 2974). On them, Big Jim is accompanied by John McLaughlin and Jimmy Page.