General Music Chat

I see your point, and it is a view point, one way to look at it, of which she has given us all the right to express our points and opinions as she went public with it, it is good to get all points and you have provided a valid one, but don't shame us please, as we may be ignorant but we are learning.

Careful Craig, the crowd is here with torches and pitch forks..

And I don't think they came for the free beer! lol

I can't help but remember that when she told her sister, she WAS on drugs, Craig. She was ALSO on drugs just last year on the Today Show, by her own admission. How long HAS she been "clean," Craig? A few months? A week, maybe?

For all I know, she seduced her father when HE was using.

She was 19, Craig - NOT a child - when this sex sh*t supposedly started.

I haven't heard any of her siblings telling how THEY were introduced to drugs at age 10, either. What made her so special? She certainly isn't the cutest of the bunch.

My sense of human decency includes the rest of the world, Craig, those of us that don't need or want this sort of thing in our lives, nor in our children's minds. How DARE her & the media expose the innocent to this filth!

Cathartic? for whom? Her? After all the sh*t that she's pulled in her lifetime, why the hell should I care? I've been spoon-fed her antics for what, 30+ years, now, off & on? She should be dealing with this with her family & counsellor, bub, NOT ME OR MINE! She could have killed her unborn child, or worse, man! She's trash. She's always been trash. What she's doing now, exposing us all to her crap, only continues to prove to me what kind of trash she is - the lowest form of trash.

Yes, she should keep this a secret for the rest of her life, rather than to spout it from the treetops. She should only work on it with her counsellor of choice, her family & friends. If she chooses Oprah, that's fine, if she has the decency to keep it out of the eyes ears & minds of the potentially sick f*ckers out there who will want to emulate her father & his supposed actions, not to mention children, Craig. It's none of my damned business, nor my son's, nor my grandson's, & I certainly don't want it to be, thank you very much!

I'm still not convinced, anyway. How in the hell have you come to the conclusion that "There should be no doubt that this happened?" Cuz SHE says it happened? She's a junkie. I don't believe her. Do you believe that Mick Jagger was also involved? Cuz she said that, too.

Working on it with a trained professional, then moving on, working on getting over the bad sh*t, is far, far more healing than either exposing it to children or blabbing about it to the world.

I'm sick to death of celebrity status for victimhood. Treat them, but don't expose us all to their sick little tales of woe. It's bound to encourage other sick ppl out there if we keep this sh*t up.

And I feel NO SHAME for my views, bub, so you can just stop the childish chastising, k? All I want is for my family to be protected from this crap, & THAT, sir, no matter what you may think about it, is the RIGHT way to be. If you can't see that, at least let me have my own opinion on it without your f*cking bad-mouthing me for my views. "Shame on you," my ass, Craig! If you can't keep things on a somewhat balanced, friendly format, then STFU & keep everything to yourself in the 1st place. Who the hell proclaimed you to be the guardian of all that's good & right? I sure didn't, & I don't need to be put down because I disagree with your BS. STFU!

LOL Phil's pissed..

The fact of the matter is, All the points expressed on the forum pertaining to this fiasco are valid.

Craig, Phil , Myself and nobody else on this forum really knows all the facts.

What makes this interesting is how polarized we have become on the way we interpret the story. There seems to be no middle ground.

I believe Craig's stance against the perceived incestuous abuse of a women is sincere and honorable

however

It may be that Phil's intuition is closer to the truth.

From here on out, I'm sitting on the fence on this one until the time that more substantiated facts come to light.(if they ever do)

Now excuse me while I go see if I can find that damn 'ol clarinet!

You boys can continue to rip each other's nuts out over the main topic if ya wanna.

later,
Howlin'

Oh Howlin' never insinuate that everyone is right, then they all turn on you at once..

(pitchforks and torches, hee-hee)

Oh Howlin' never insinuate that everyone is right, then they all turn on you at once..

(pitchforks and torches, hee-hee)

At this point Capt, a good forkin' don't seem like such a bad idea.

ouch!

Eh...some ppl just aren't happy unless they can wag their finger in your face & tell you you're a bad person for disagreeing with their views on any given subject. Glutes seems to be very fond of that, for some ungodly reason. (Emphasis on ungodly!) I love to judge ppl like that, every time they try to judge me, cuz they always come up way short, especially when they claim to be oh so pious & good christians & oh so right & to have god's lips at their ear & all.

F*ckin' wanker!

lol Sinners become saints right after Church on Sunday and it lasts almost to Wednesday..if you're lucky.

How long HAS she been "clean," Craig? A few months? A week, maybe?

About 1 year now, is what has been reported.

For all I know, she seduced her father when HE was using.?

Yeah Phil. That's pretty typical behavior isn't it? Teenaged daughters victimizing their fathers through sex.

I haven't heard any of her siblings telling how THEY were introduced to drugs at age 10, either.

John Phillips had 5 children. The only one I don't know about having issues with drugs from an early age was Chynna, but for all we know she may have as well. She became a Christian early on though, and went in a different direction than her siblings, which may have saved her from that lifestyle.

Another daughter, Bijou Phillips, successfully attained emancipation from her parents when she was 14 years old. When she was 12, or maybe younger, she had to live in a foster home for awhile, because both John and his wife, who had separated and were both filing for custody of her, were declared unfit parents, both of them. John got custody sometime later. But she was emancipated soon after. But Bijou has had a history of drug problems, just like her siblings, and their various parents, with John being the common relative (he married 4 times)

btw...

He had an affair with Michelle (Chynna's mom) when she was still a teenager, which is why his first divorce happened. He married Michelle when she turned 18. Mackenzie's mom left John when she found out about the affair with a teenager.

What made her so special? She certainly isn't the cutest of the bunch.

That's a real abuser mentality isn't it? It would make more sense to you if it was Chynna or Bijou huh? Then incestuous rape would be understandable, wouldn't it?

Here's a reason for you...

Mackenzie was his FIRST and ONLY DAUGHTER from his FIRST MARRIAGE. That marriage ended when John had an affair with a teenager, and the only daughter out of it, was Machenzie. Is it easier to abuse her, or to abuse Chynna, while Chynna's mom is still in the house? With Mackenzie, the mom is not there any more. And because Mackenzie is from a PREVIOUS marriage, he can justify "special time" with his daughter to his new family can't he? She's only half related to the others, so he needs to spend one on one time with her... who would argue?

An additional possibility is that he never wanted to lose his first wife. She left him after all. Maybe Mackenzie reminded him of her mom? Maybe in his sick mind, it was like still being with her mom? Or maybe it was all in vengeance for her leaving him?

Cathartic? for whom? Her?

Of course for her. She is the victim. She deserves some healing and cleansing, even if it comes at 50 years old. Apparently it has also meant alot to other abuse victims as well, whose father's committed similar offenses. They have been sending her letters and emails thanking her for her bravery in bringing this to the public's attention, rather than brushing it under the rug, as YOU would have her do, and which is part of the success these abusers have in continuing the abuse.

After all the sh*t that she's pulled in her lifetime, why the hell should I care?

What has she "pulled"?

Until recently, we have known that she has been a drug addict for many decades. That's about it.

She's a drug addict.

Now we know why.

Yes, she should keep this a secret for the rest of her life, rather than to spout it from the treetops.

Blame the victim. Protect the abuser.

I disagree with that old-school theory. Sexual abuse of a family member, like domestic abuse of wives before it, has always thrived better in the culture of SECRECY that protects it. Get it out in the open. Expose it. Maybe THAT will then discourage some abusers from it, or at least encourage their victims to hold them responsible.

Celebrities can be f*ck ups, but they can also be tremendously valuable, when they are honest about their own struggles. Brooke Shields' book about Postpartum Depression, which personally detailed her own struggles, had helped many many women to face this issue, rather than run from it. For right or wrong, people tend to look up to celebrities, and when one is honest about a particular issue, it seems to allow others to say "She's rich and famous and she has this problem too, so maybe I am not such an anomaly in life... there are others like me... even famous celebrities... If they can be brave enough to confront this issue, then maybe I should too!"

I'm still not convinced, anyway. How in the hell have you come to the conclusion that "There should be no doubt that this happened?"

She told her sister Chynna about it, more than a decade ago. She also told her sister Bijou about it. BOTH sisters have said they believe her. This was THEIR FATHER TOO remember. That is a HUGE statement of support, when it is made about their own father. They clearly knew he was f*cked up in the head enough to do this, and they believe Mackenzie's testimony. Additionally, Jessica Woods, the daughter of Denny Doherty, said that her own father knew of the relationship as well. Doherty was in a later version of the Mamas and the Papas with John Phillips. This is outside corroboration of the story.

What did Mackenzie have to gain from lying about this, more than a decade ago, and yet not brining it publicly until now?

It is hard for ANY daughter to confess something like this about her own father, but how much harder would it be, when he is a cultural icon? She kept his dirty little secret in silence. Then, finally, she confided to her sisters.... She did that... WHILE John Phillips was still alive. After he died, she tried to continue the charade, but obviously, though she hoped healing would finally come, now that he was gone, after years and years passed by, it never did come. She was not free from this nightmare. This terrible secret she had felt duty bound to protect.

Finally, nearing 50, she realized that it SHOULD NOT BE HER RESPONSIBILITY to bear at all. She was the victim. He started the incest with her through rape. He got her started on drugs, doing the injecting himself, of the first needle into her arm. Why should she have to keep a pervert's secrets, just because he is a cultural icon? After getting sober, she decided to tell her secret to the public. Who knows? Maybe there would be some understanding there. Even if there wasn't, it would be out there finally. She would no longer have to bear this burden in silence, and maybe, just maybe, that would be liberation enough.


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"Yeah Phil. That's pretty typical behavior isn't it? Teenaged daughters victimizing their fathers through sex."
Um..that's what happened in the bible's story of incest, isn't it?

How long has she been drug-free? - "About 1 year now, is what has been reported."
Reported by whom? Her? So I should just believe it, right? Remember that she has used drugs practically her entire life, from her own account, & has lied about it to the media & her employers & her friends & family in the past. Not enough time has passed, not enough "healing" has been achieved, imo, to just take her word for it.

"Blame the victim. Protect the abuser."
Just where did I justify that? I questioned her truthfullness & I said that it should be between her & her counsellor & her family & friends, didn't I? This is NOT "G" material, Craig, & has no business on family tv.

"Finally, nearing 50, she realized that it SHOULD NOT BE HER RESPONSIBILITY to bear at all. She was the victim."
THAT's why we HAVE counselors & ministers & family & friends, Craig. To help us through the rough times in our lives. We don't need to show the whole world our scars to get that healing done. It exposes the victim to ridicule & disbelief, as can be seen here. It also, as I have reiterated several times, puts thoughts that wouldn't normally be there in the minds of ppl that perhaps shouldn't HAVE those kinds of thoughts. Then of course THEIR kids have stories to tell, too, until it snowballs & we can ALL be victims.

Any number of us probably have horrid stories from our youth to "share," Craig (I know that I do), but we don't all share it, do we? The ppl who successfully overcome their traumas should be celebrated. Those who wallow in them, or do nothing to improve their lot, should be taught proper behaviors.

"Pretty is as pretty does." Show the world that you have become a better, stronger person in spite of life's challenges, & you've done something to be proud of. Wallow in the horribleness of your life, tell the world how bad you've had it, & you've done nothing at all but drag the world down with you. We don't need to know all the sordid details of someone's life to know whether or not that they have overcome things, either. If you make something of yourself, you've overcome life's challenges by definition. THESE are the lessons we should be teaching our children, NOT showing them that they can get on tv & be talked about by millions if something bad happens to them.

This woman has done no one any favors with her little expose', & she may have actually done irreparable harm with her actions. I see no reason to encourage her, or to reward her for her victim status. Nor do I think that this in any way proves that she should be rewarded with her new-found celebrity status. Once again, she's done nothing to earn it but what she's done all along - bring the world down. The only thing she's done differently is to do it by exposing children & sickos to that which they should not be exposed to...oh wait! That's not really "different" at all, is it?

I find it difficult to forgive the act of nearly destroying a baby in the womb to catch a buzz. I don't think there is anything at all healthy about this individual. I suspect that we'll no doubt be hearing more as she continues to try to gain more attention, unless the media wises up.

We will never agree on this, Craig.

I can agree, however, that her dad probably wasn't a good father, seeing how his kids turned out.

Um..that's what happened in the bible's story of incest, isn't it?

That was thousands of years ago Phil. Anything more recent?

This is NOT "G" material, Craig, & has no business on family tv.

Oprah is hardly "family tv". But why shouldn't it be seen on family tv? Should the fact that there are pedophiles out there, who would kidnap a little girl to torture, rape and then murder her, be mentioned on tv? The fact that there are people out there who don't respect children as children, makes it impossible, if not irresponsible, for a child to be allowed to be a simple naive and unconcerned child. There are too many dangers out there, with bad people being on the top of the list. Children SHOULD be made aware of what improper touching is, and what bad people are capable of, and how they can help to protect themselves. I know of several stories off the top of my head where a child was abducted WHILE the parents were in the house. The child must be made aware for their own benefit.

We don't need to show the whole world our scars to get that healing done. It exposes the victim to ridicule & disbelief, as can be seen here.

LMAO!

You mean, had she kept her mouth shut, it would have protected her from people like... uh.... YOU!

That's priceless Phil. You get to be victimizer with your attacks, and then you get to be protector with your philosophy of silence. You like getting it both ways don't you?

This was almost... almost but not quite... as good as when people were sharing their "good deeds" and you criticized sharing good deeds publicly, but then in the next sentence, shared your own. I almost pissed myself at how immoral you were, and boldly so. You criticized everyone, by default, for sharing their own good deeds, and after doing so, you were sure to share your own. You got to be superior by judging everyone for sharing their good deeds in public, and then you got to ALSO join in, and share your own good deeds. You made it so you could benefit on both sides.

Now, you are mocking a victim, while pretending to have the keys to protecting the victim (the victim you simultaneouly mock) and then you even blame the victim, for YOU MOCKING HER. It's her fault that you are able to mock her, so not only is she responsible for her father's victimization, she is responsible for your victimization of her too.

You are a real piece of work.

But I know.... secretly (as you told us) where it counts most (even though you told us publicly) you really are a softy, well, at least when it comes to repairing roofs you are. But, girls who were raped by their own fathers... no sympathy from you on that one. Maybe if her roof was leaking, you would have felt something... but.. oh well, she can't expect that much bad luck in a lifetime can she?

Father fixes and injects her first needle. Once she is hooked, he rapes her when she is passed out. Woops... what the hell? A tornado just took the roof off!!!

Nope. Too much to ask for. She'll just have to live without the secret softy Phil's roof fixin sympathies I guess.

Any number of us probably have horrid stories from our youth to "share," Craig (I know that I do), but we don't all share it, do we? The ppl who successfully overcome their traumas should be celebrated.

That was brilliant Phil.

Let's recap:

We should keep our traumas secret. And yet, we should celebrate those who overcome such traumas, even though we won't know what they've overcome, cause they kept it secret. So, I guess we will just assume that anyone who has succeded, may have overcome some adverse trauma, and we will celebrate them for overcoming it, though we can't know for sure, whether they really overcame anything at all.

Don't bother explaining.

I'm sure that to you, it made sense somehow.

Show the world that you have become a better, stronger person in spite of life's challenges, & you've done something to be proud of.

A pride that actually, no one can experience, if they follow the other part of your advice, which is to keep it all secret... what did you say? Oh yeah... FOREVER!

This woman has done no one any favors with her little expose', & she may have actually done irreparable harm with her actions.

Wow. Irreperable harm. Exposing a child molesting father publicly could do irreperable harm to the world. Whereas, conversely, protecting his crimes FOREVER would potentially improve the world greatly somehow.

You aren't a member of NAMBLA by any chance are you?

Nor do I think that this in any way proves that she should be rewarded with her new-found celebrity status. Once again, she's done nothing to earn it but what she's done all along - bring the world down.

I guess everyone who thought that she became famous by being cast in American Graffitti at 12 was mistaken. And the ones who thought she was famous playing Julie Cooper on One Day at a Time were wrong also? She was also a member of the Mamas and the Papas for a brief period.

And Wikipedia lists these:

In 1999, Phillips co-starred with Cara DeLizia in the Disney Channel series So Weird, playing a fictional rock star. She sang original songs written by Jon Cooksey and Ann Marie Montade. In the 2002, she appeared in the Disney Channel original movie Double Teamed. Phillips has since guest starred on episodes of ER, Without a Trace, 7th Heaven, and Cold Case.


Apparently she is famous WITHOUT the drug addiction, and can get work from Hollywood as long as she is coherent enough to show up.

Other child stars have done porn films and robbed banks to satisfy their drug addictions, but it is Mackenzie, not them, who is bringing "the world" down in your mind.

Why would that be?

One would really wonder why you are so personally invested in covering up these kinds of acts?

I can agree, however, that her dad probably wasn't a good father, seeing how his kids turned out.

Probably?

Probably?

The state declared both he and his wife as unfit parents. He admits in his own autobiography that he injected himself on average EVERY 15 MINUTES with Heroine and cocaine. He raped his daughter. He introduced her to drugs. He gave her, her first injection.

But "probably" he was a bad father, based on your dislike for his daughter Mackenzie. Not for sure. Just probably.

Wow.

Is this a woman problem? Do you hate women or something?

Otherwise, how is Mackenzie "Trash" for being a drug addict, whereas her admittedly drug addicted father is only "probably" a bad father?

They were BOTH drug addicts, but you characterize them far differently.

Mackenzie is "trash" and "bringing the world down" for being a drug addict, yet her father is only "probably" a bad father for being a drug addict too.

Remember awhile back, when you argued that women should be treated the same as men, and not afforded any special protection, even though they were disproportionately the target of violent crimes by men? You just couldn't muster any sympathy for them then either.

Why is that?



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WTF is your problem?

ANY touching by strangers is something I taught my kid to be avoided & talked to ME about. This is a parent's duty, Craig, NOT Oprah's or the state's. There IS no need to go into it in stark detail. There is no need to give too much info to a child. That causes unnecessary frights. I will not strip a child of his innocense to ease YOUR fears. Avoid strangers & cry for help if you feel uncomfortable. Come to your mom & dad about it all, cuz this family is a safe place that you can trust. THAT's all a child really needs to know.

Yeah, bad stuff happens to undeserving ppl. They work it out with friends & family & professionals, if need be. Why do you see this as some sort of need to get on your soapbox yet again? Why should anyone?

ANYTHING that happens to a person gives them NO RIGHT to endanger their unborn, which I consider to be a "holy duty," if you will.

Yes, it makes perfect sense to me to keep one's traumas to oneself. We ALL have them, bub. Every single one of us has endured abuse in our life. Becoming stronger & better in spite of the errors of others & ourselves in the past is what makes ppl great. Bragging about what you've done, or whining about how hard it's been for you, does not.

I gave 2 small examples of things I've done for others, one time, to participate in the convo. I also told of my personal inhibitions about doing so. You have a problem with that? You'll jump on anything won't you?

Irreparable harm can easily come when some nutcase hears about a ten year affair between a man & his daughter on the news, yes, Craig. I stand by that statement. Chances are that there aren't many ppl who would wanna delve into it all as deeply as you obviously have, &, for some, it would just excite them to hear about the nasty bits. Go ahead & feed their dirty little hungers all you want. It makes you less of a man in my eyes. You sound more like an exciteable grandmother every time you type a post. Let's DO tell everyone about what's happened our lives, Craig. Let's ALL be borish assholes, shall we? It's bound to help SOMEONE, isn't it?

It has yet to be proven to me that she WAS raped, you ass. Can't you get that through your lil pin head? She's a JUNKIE, Craig! Not just any junkie, either - one who has the eyes of the world upon her after endangering her son in her womb. She's garbage, pure & simple. Go ahead & defend her all you want. Laud her virtues all you want to, but she's still nothing but a piece of sh*t to me, & that's all she'll ever be.

Each & every little thing she has told us is questionable. I believe very little of it. If it's true, well, she should have handled it all better than she has, & yeah, it's a damned shame & her father's a nutcase & I'm glad he's gone off to his final reward. If it isn't, you're defending a liar. Either way, I don't wanna hear about it in front of youngsters. Innocense is all too rare a commodity these days to waste it on a person who took drugs while pregnant, who's lied most of her life (if not ALL of it), & who's a junkie who can't hold a job (even when her father's name is what got her the job in the 1st place).

She has a huge responsibility in this sordid little tale, Craig. She was NOT some helpless little child when she was "raped." She did nothing but go along with it? "Ouch, daddy! Next time lemme be awake, huh?" She did NOTHING. I have no respect, no compassion, & no further interest in someone so stupid, so warped, whether this is all true or not. She's just a whiny little twit with a tell-all book.

So why all the interest in my views anyway? Perhaps because they're shared by so many ppl? Well, I'm sorry for you if you think I'm totally wrong, but I really don't think I am. Get over it. I already told you that I'd never agree with you on this subject. Is it so important for you to change my mind? Do you have some unseen personal stake in MY humble opinion?

In closing, i'll try to answer one more of your questions - why would she wait to tell this, & why tell it now?

It's pretty obvious that she isn't gonna get hired to actually DO anything anymore, isn't it? She's burned quite a few bridges in her illustrious career - with ppl, with jobs AND with the public. So now, at nearly 50, she's gonna need to continue somehow. Why not a tell-all book? It's worked for others hasn't it? I doubt she even has the ability to write it on her own, since she was so high all the time she was supposed to be learning, so she's prolly had help with this book. She more than likely jazzed it up as much as possible to sell as many as she can, & to gain national attention again. Her publisher sends her out to talk shows. She's in the limelight again. Life is GOOD for her, isn't it? Who knows? There could be a MOVIE DEAL!!!!

THAT's the scenario I envision concerning her. Call me callous & crass & unfeeling & bigotted against women all you want to. Your opinion of me means less than most to me, esp after hearing some of the outrageous BS you come up with.

But she's trash in my mind...yes - FOREVER!

Go ahead & defend her all you want. Laud her virtues all you want to, but she's still nothing but a piece of sh*t to me, & that's all she'll ever be.

When someone is a legal adult, they become responsible for their own actions. No one said she was sinless. But she "IS" a victim, and one of the worst kinds of victims possible. By her own father, who taught her how to use drugs and then raped her when she was blacked out from them. I'm not even sure it is even reasonable to call an 18 or 19 year old an adult. There is a reason why the drinking age is 21 and not 18. It is an unfair policy, to send young men to die in war at 18 and not allow them alcohol. Maybe the age of legal adulthood should be raised to 21? Psychologists have know for a long time that the area of the brain that controls impulsivity is not fully developed in many, until up to 21 years of age.

Call her irresponsible or self-destructive, but there is a clear ABUSER here, and it is NOT Mackenzie. It is her so-called "father". As such, he deserves vitriol far more than she. I tend to feel more sympathy to those who destroy themselves, than I do for those who manipulate and destroy others. It takes real callousness to manipulate and harm other people for self-gratification. This is the worst kind of person.

Each & every little thing she has told us is questionable. I believe very little of it.

Why? You don't have any trouble beliving that she was high on the Today Show. It was she herself that made that confession. You believed her right away on that one, didn't you? But when she makes other confessions, deserving of some sympathy, then you don't believe her any longer. Why do you have so little sympathy for a victim such as she? You claim it is because she is drug addicted, she probably made it all up. Is her sister Chynna, the Christian, drug addicted too? Or just deluded? She believes Mackenzie's statement. So does their other sister Bijou. This is TWO OTHER SISTERS who have DIFFERENT MOTHERS, all believing the SAME THING about their father. When two other sisters not only BELIEVE that their father is capable of such an act, but are willing to state that belief PUBLICLY, then I think that is a POWERFUL statement against his character. If you asked my step kids if I was capable of such a thing, I can guarantee you the answer would be no. If someone falsely claimed something like that against me, I GUARANTEE YOU that my step-kids would tell them they were full of sh*t. That our step-dad would NEVER do something like that. These are just my step-kids, but they know my heart and character. They have caught their dad lying to them dozens of times in the last 7 years, and others in their family as well. But in that same time period, seven years now, I have NEVER lied to them once. Not even once. They know I never will.

But I'm just a step-dad.

These women, are flesh and blood daughters of this man John Phillips, and they BOTH have stated PUBLICLY that they believe he is capable of this, and they BELIEVE MACKENZIE.

But perhaps you know John Phillips better than his own daughters do?


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Eh...talking with you about anything is like this Craig - http://www.yikers.com/video_most_ridicu ... _time.html

Kinda silly. Yeah, I still feel the same about her. you haven't changed a thing in anyone's mind.

You have some fancy footwork, though. Kinda like this - http://www.yikers.com/video_fat_dude_am ... t_ddr.html