General Music Chat

Let me ask you this...If it's a sin to play instruments in church, and your body is the church, then why do you play instruments ANYWHERE?! The Church is not the building that you go to on Sunday. The Church is the PEOPLE - Christians - the Congregation. YOU are the church if you are a Christian.

The building is not the church. It's just where the church meets.

That quote is from an earlier post of mine in this thread. I agree with you. Like I said the Church is not the building.

Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The "in my name " part of that verse is pertinent here. I don't do everything in my life as worship.

NO ONE was trying to establish a future model for a "church", as far as function and purpose goes. They were spreading the Gospel as quickly as they could. They were trying to bring as many souls to the Lord as quickly as they could.

They literally expected Christ's return "any day".

God was trying to establish a present AND future model for the Church because he knows when he is coming back.

Yes they did expect it any day. They were told to get back to work too.

Now you say you would "make" some? Or bang on something as a replacement? They never ever, ever, expected that 2000 years would pass, and Christ STILL has not returned.

Yes I would, the same way I would take the lords supper on the first day of the week, give of my means, preach, teach, pray and sing. Expecting the future would have and does have no bearing on obeying the laws set up by Christ.

As in the Old Testament, the entire culture, and all the wealth and power of the state, was now behind the new religion, and it afforded them the luxuries of cathedrals and instruments and robes for priests, etc...

Robes for the priests... more traditions of men. This one is actually specifically forbidden.

Matt 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

on a similar note we are also not to call a religious leader father.

Matt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

I have explained these things scripturally and logically to you. You have too great a vested interest in your position and culture, to change anything and consider all this with an open mind.

What I have a vested interest in is reading things for myself in the inspired word of God. And I do keep an open mind. Open to the scriptures. You say the Church of Christ (and I) are stuck in traditions of men. We (the congregation I worship with) specifically changed a matter of doctrine based on scriptural example just a few years ago. Heard of church discipline?

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

We are to go to him first as 1 to show with the bible his error, then with 2 or 3, then tell him we will be withdrawing fellowship if he doesn't quit whatever sin it is that is plaguing him. Then we are to simply quit hanging out with him.

We made that change when we read it in the bible our only guide.

It grieves me, that you love a man-made doctrine and your "position" in it, so much, that you sacrifice the freedom Christ gave us, and turn your back on it.

It grieves me that you would call singing and singing only, based on new testament examples, the traditions of men. I backed it up with scripture yet you deny that that is the instruction given in the new testament (our guide). I do have freedom in Christ, freedom from the sin, the chains that bind. I have freedom from the ideas and traditions of men because I do in worship only what I can read in the new testament.

It is still clear that instruments were introduced into the Church hundreds of years after the true church was started.

It is also clear from examples like Leviticus 10:1, Nadab and Abihu, and Exodus 29:18, burning a Ram is a sweet savour, that we only know what kind of worship God wants by reading his word and following it. Otherwise it is traditions of men.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I think you would live a fuller life in true worship, and not worship based on laws. But you aren't ready for that.

I live a full life of worship Craig, I worship in spirit AND truth. Not just the spirit. It seems to me you would have me worship just with spirit.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

If you just worship him with the right spirit or attitude and don't follow the truth found in the bible you fall into the category of the people in the following verses.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Craig you have accused me of not having an open mind. It seems to me that after I have backed everything I said with scripture and you still won't see that as sound doctrine that you have the closed mind. I know it is shocking to hear these things. It shocked me too. But now that I know the truth I can't turn back.

The bible is complete and all we need to know.

II pet 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Because the bible is the only guide for worshiping God I will sing.

You gentlemen make good arguments or should I say debate points.
As an outside observation, You both Craig and Paul, seem to be saying the same thing from a different perspective.
A very interisting theology debate. Let us remain civil in our dissagreements. for myself the Theology is simple.
I have been saved by Grace Alone. My actions for good or evil due to my humanity are now irrelivent. The law as well as my sin washed away in the blood of my savior Jesus. The holy spirit abides in me, and I look to the reserection of my perfect body and my life eternal with my Father in Heaven. See Yall There!

Paul, you are a hypocrite, pure and simple.

You claim to follow the church's "example" regarding musical instruments, and have made "silence" a phantom commandment NOT to do something in praise of God.

You are not consistent, as mentioned numerous times.

The Bible is SILENT on these things too, and neither were these things an EXAMPLE, yet you do them:

1) Pay your pastor a salary
2) Sing from hymnals
3) Use micophones
4) Use speakers
5) Use air-conditioning
6) Erect sanctuaries


You avoided my explanation of how a microphone and speaker are NOT your voice being projected through the sanctuary, but rather, itself, a form of instrument.

This created, and man made apparatus is OK apparently though. A machine can duplicate your voice and then project the immitation of it. But an instrument, canot be used to praise God.

When the last trumpet blows, I hope it doesn't occur while you are in church, and therefore forbidden. You may miss it.

Hypocrisy Paul.

Nothing but hypocrisy.

You'll make instruments an ABSOLUTE issue, for no greater reason than your early movement's founders did. But you'll pick and choose everything else.

Shame on you.

Paul, you are a hypocrite, pure and simple.

I don't even resemble a hypocrite Craig. Should I bring up your "Hell yeah, damn right" cursing while claiming to be a follower of Christ? and call you you a hypocrite?
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth... Or perhaps it's the playing in bars I should bring up. Bars are for getting drunk, hooking up, socializing ..... and your band is background noise. Cor 15:33 Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

You claim to follow the church's "example" regarding musical instruments, and have made "silence" a phantom commandment NOT to do something in praise of God.

Actually what I'm saying is do what he said. Don't add to or take away from. Like the rev. verses said. Straight forward enough.

You are not consistent, as mentioned numerous times.

Consistent is exactly what I am. I am consistent with the bibles teaching on worship. Am I sinless? No. That is also consistent with the bible. I am consistent because the bible and God don't change. I know if we simply follow his design we are pleasing to him.

The Bible is SILENT on these things too, and neither were these things an EXAMPLE, yet you do them:

1) Pay your pastor a salary
2) Sing from hymnals
3) Use micophones
4) Use speakers
5) Use air-conditioning
6) Erect sanctuaries



You avoided my explanation of how a microphone and speaker are NOT your voice being projected through the sanctuary, but rather, itself, a form of instrument.

I certainly did not avoid them, instead I related how Christ used the water and the boat to amplify his voice. As a matter of fact this is the 3rd time I related this point.

To break down your list...
1. The preachers were to be taken care of. With food clothing and shelter. We do exactly that.
2. hymnals help us to sing all the words the same and in harmony, this is in keeping with the "decently and in order" verse I quoted
3. and 4. are the same as the boat and the water aplification.
5. AC, man I don't even know how many ways to put this. Quite simply AC is not an item of worship.
6. We are to meet. It is convenient to meet in this building. It is a house where the church meets.

You'll make instruments an ABSOLUTE issue, for no greater reason than your early movement's founders did. But you'll pick and choose everything else.

Shame on you.

That's just it Craig, when you bring it in you make it the issue. I don't make it an issue because I wouldn't try to bring it in. I don't have to pick and choose anything. God picked the items of worship. We just follow his lead. It's so obvious Craig that you want me to be wrong. That's ok I'm used to it. But taking delight in trying to prove me wrong just shows where your heart is. Mine is in submission to the clear written will of God, and in sharing what I can read for myself.

Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul,

Amplification fo sound naturally is NOT in the same time zone as using a microphone ans speaker dude.

When your voice is amplified by acoustic properties of a building, for example, the sound waves came from your voice. They were not altered. It is the same sound waves, travelling through the air.

Your voice going into a microphone "IS" a disruption of the natural sound waves. The transducers CONVERT your voice into electrical impulses, which are then INTERPRETED BACK into sound through the speakers.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with going to bars, or enjoying a little party with friends, or drinking alcohol for that matter. Jesus would be doing the same today, which is why he hung out at parties and was accussed of being a glutton and drunkard.

You would have been one of the ones accussing him, in all your self-righteousness. There is NO doubt about that. Jesus violated MANY of your church's protocols. He would have been admonished and then kicked out. You are no better than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Paul,

Amplification fo sound naturally is NOT in the same time zone as using a microphone ans speaker dude.

When your voice is amplified by acoustic properties of a building, for example, the sound waves came from your voice. They were not altered. It is the same sound waves, travelling through the air.

Your voice going into a microphone "IS" a disruption of the natural sound waves. The transducers CONVERT your voice into electrical impulses, which are then INTERPRETED BACK into sound through the speakers.

Ask anybody what the sound is that's coming out of speaker. They will say a human voice. It is still singing. That again is clear.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with going to bars, or enjoying a little party with friends, or drinking alcohol for that matter. Jesus would be doing the same today, which is why he hung out at parties and was accussed of being a glutton and drunkard.

Of course you don't Craig. I'm sure you wouldn't do that if you thought it was a sin. I'm also sure you don't think inhaling all of the concentrated second hand smoke isn't being a poor steward of your body. Thought provoking eh? Accused is the key word there Craig. Since being a Drunkard and a glutton are sins we can be sure Jesus didn't do that. Jesus went into those situations to share the truth. He knew he would not sin. We however are supposed to abstain from all appearance of evil.

You would have been one of the ones accussing him, in all your self-righteousness. There is NO doubt about that. Jesus violated MANY of your church's protocols. He would have been admonished and then kicked out. You are no better than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

You keep saying what I would and wouldn't do. Not cool. The congregation I worship with doesn't have protocols, creeds, handbooks, texts other than the bible etc. I can't imagine what you think he would have been kicked out for.

It boils down to this. You ridicule me for worshiping as the bible has clearly stated. Again I backed everything up with scripture. It's not my opinions, instead it is what I quoted from the bible. You continue to attack and act angry even as I show the scriptures to back up the practice.

Adding instruments clearly falls under the topic of the Rev. verses I quoted that said "Don't add to the bible" It's like saying you know what God wants better than God himself.

Yes it's an alarming idea, but as soon as you show to me an alarming idea ,that you can back up with scripture, I will study it and present it to the congregation for study. Like church discipline, if it is scripturally sound, the changes will be made.

All that matters is what the written will of God says. I will follow that.

Ask anybody what the sound is that's coming out of speaker. They will say a human voice.

But it is NOT a human voice. That is FACT, not opinion. You seem to be saying that as long as they "believe" it is a human voice, then everything is fine. But clearly that doesn't work. How far you will go. Wow. I'll bring a digital keyboard and play the choir voices then, no problem right?

Of course you don't Craig. I'm sure you wouldn't do that if you thought it was a sin. I'm also sure you don't think inhaling all of the concentrated second hand smoke isn't being a poor steward of your body.

Well, ever since I found out that second hand smoke is allegedly MORE dangerous than first hand smoke, I took cigarettes back up, after all, I don't want to die before I have to!

We however are supposed to abstain from all appearance of evil.

Once again, I don't think bars are evil. I don't think liquor is evil. I don't think ANY inanimate object is evil. People going to a bar to socialize is not evil to me. But as to "appearances", once again you are being somewhat hipocritical if you desire to be ABSOLUTE on this topic. Frankly, you look like the devil in your profile pic, or at least people's conception of the devil. Almost none of your pics look reverent or holy. In fact, you appear to be trying to look cool or wicked. Anyone's comments to you about them over the last months will confirm that. But you don't seem to care about "that" appearance.

I can't imagine what you think he would have been kicked out for.

For violating biblical commandments, which he did on occassion.

It boils down to this. You ridicule me for worshiping as the bible has clearly stated. Again I backed everything up with scripture.

No you don't. Because there is NO scripture which prohibits use of instruments in church. There is also NO scripture which specifically authorizes pastor being paid salaries, or use of microphones, speakers or electricity in church. There "IS" however, scripture which demands that women cover their heads.

You just dismiss these things because your church group doesn't make an issue of them. If they did, you would be spouting that as commandmens or lack thereof as well. But your church didn't split over head-coverings, they split over instruments. Just one more victroy for Satan. One more division in the body of Christ. For no good reason.

How serious is eating meat sacrificed to an idol? That is serious business. But even that, matters not to God in the least. It is the HEART that God is concerned with, not obeting rituals, or fear of displeasing God over superstitions. Instruments have a long history in praise of God. As you said, God doesn't change. Therefore, if He enjoyed them in Jewish worship, he enjoys it now too. God is not some schizophrenic whacko that DEMANDED his chosen people to play instruments, only to PROHIBIT us from playing them after Christ's crucifixion, only to RESUME the practice all over again in Heaven.

That is sheer nonsense Paul. But you follow interpretations of men, where scripture is concerned, rather than seeing the truth of this, in your own soul. God is not mentally ill, flip flopping all over the place, on what kind of worship He enjoys.

All that matters is what the written will of God says. I will follow that.

Wrong again.

God living INSIDE you and directing your path, is a FAR MORE RELIABLE guide that anything written on paper.

The Bible is a GUIDE. It is something TANGIBLE, provided to help us find and know and love, the INTANGIBLE God, who is spirit.

Revelation comes through the SPIRIT first. Not the pen. Things written, are written first on our hearts, not in printed materials.

The Bible promises that God will reveal the things to come to his children. The Bible declares that no man needs a teacher, when God dwells in him. The original languages of the Bible are Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, NOT English. Languages are man-made. Languages can never adequately express everything we wish to express. Language is a tool. Books are tools. It is all related to our physical world, it will all die, perish and decay.

The written word is merely there, to guide us into the LIVING word, which is Jesus Christ, which is God Himself.

The LIVING word is all we need.

The LIVING word is what created us. The LIVING word is what purposed us. The LIVING word is what saves us. The LIVING word is what is eternal.

The written word is inanimate. It does not save. It does not create. It is not eternal. It does not love. It is not our Father.

If you want to limit your relationship to your father through text primarily, that is your choice. But I suspect you would be MISERABLE if your primary communication with your own children, was limited to letters. God would concur. He desires most, to have a loving relationship with you directly, from heart to heart, not for you to find out who He is, primarily through reading about Him.

If I had a father, who died before I was born, or maybe he was gone all the time, for years at a time, because he was famous or important, I would get every book I could and read about him, learn his history and read interviews with him, etc...

I would do ALL of those things, but it would never fully satisfy me. I would want most, to be WITH HIM, and talk to him directly, and feel his love personally, and return that love personally.

The written word of God is VERY important, but has been filtered through the mind of men, written in languages made of men, and translated into other languages by scholars who may or may not, have translated correctly.

The Bible is inspired by God, but it is not God himself.

If God lives in you, and guides your conscience directly, there is NOTHING more precise or accurate than that.

God is spirit. He relates to us spiritually.

If you believe that you know the will of God best from reading a book about Him, as opposed to communing DIRECTLY with Him, then we will likely never find common ground.

And if that is truly the case, then maybe you should consider sending your own children to live with others, and just write them a long letter, and leave it at that, since they will know you best from reading about you.

Paul,

My outrage is not exclusively about you. It is the culture you are related to. It infuriates me. It is destroying the body of Christ and perverting the true message of God's heart and love.

It is not exclusive to the Church of Christ.

It is a cancer running rampant throughout the body.

If it is not "instruments" it is baptism by "immersion" as opposed to "sprinkling" or whether to clap in church or remain silent, or whether the Lord's Supper is administered every service, once a week, or once every so often.

There is no shortage of paltry issues Satan can and does use, to divide believers, mislead them, and take them away from their first love.

HOLY MOTHERFUCKER, MAN!!!! lol

This is exactly what I was talking about...Look how much everyone is arguing. Look how angry everyone is getting. Why does it matter?! If he doesn't want to have instruments in his church, then fine. Who cares!? Just don't tell us we're wrong for having instruments in our churches.

Like I said, shouldn't you be more concerned with leading people to Christ than spending your time arguing about petty things that don't really matter?

Now before I go, let me leave you with this verse:

Psalm 98:5 KJV:
"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm."

The Message version:
"Make melody to the Lord with instruments of music; with a corded instrument and the voice of song."

Now before I go, let me leave you with this verse:

Psalm 98:5 KJV:
"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm."

His church discounts the ENTIRE Old Testament dude, other than seeing it as one big history book.

Now before I go, let me leave you with this verse:

Psalm 98:5 KJV:
"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm."

His church discounts the ENTIRE Old Testament dude, other than seeing it as one big history book.

Yet again incorrect Craig. I said we were not under that law and I quoted the verses that said - keep part of the old testament you are obligated to keep all of it.

We are under the new law since Christ died. Perfect is here, imperfect passed away. I quoted that verse too.

I also quoted the verse that explains that the old testament is for our learning. It does dot govern our life or or our worship. The new does. And the new says to sing. That's all it says regarding music in worship.

HOLY MOTHERFUCKER, MAN!!!! lol

How profound!

Paul,

As I mentioned, it is the Law of Moses which was superceded, not the entire Old Testament. Jesus wouldn't have quoted so often from the Old Testament, he would not have taught the Old Testament in Synagogues if it were irrelevant. You have to take the whole counsel of the Bible, not part of it.

But we will have to agree to disagree.

You don't understand my heart on this, nor do you feel, what I feel, regarding God's disappointment with those that claim His name.

If you feel you are somehow more justified personally, before your Father, by worshipping in a more legalistic manner, then that is what you will continue to do. You are doing what you feel is right.

I really feel though, that I am seeing the bigger picture, more from God's perspective, more in touch with His heart, than you are.

But that is subjective and personal for each of us.

You are trying to follow God's will the best you know how, and I respect that. Don't think I don't. I also respect you as an artist and consider us friendly.

I don't want this thread to impact any of that.

So, we've shared our "evidence" and it doesn't persuade either of us, so I think we can agree that we've reached an impasse.

Let's agree to remain friends, and move on.