General Music Chat

No matter what line of work you are in, when you work for someone else you are not really making anything, so it has to be part of a larger strategy when you play out at bar that takes advantage of the situation. The problem with pay-to-play is that it's voluntary slavery, and it establishes your band as having no real value. Playing for the door is different. There is at least self-respect in that.

But why not organize and promote your own concerts?

There are lots of places where you can rent a room, make your own tickets, and be the promoter who makes the profit on a concert. Or, if you're going to play free anyway, why not play in a public place where there are people who could become fans? Like maybe the park, or a sidewalk downtown, or ask for a spot in the airport....whatever. How about loading on the back of a trailer and driving down the interstate?

Would you rather go to a bar with a cover charge, over-priced drinks, and slimy patrons.....or to a private keg party that costs $5 to get in and you can drink yourself stupid? The Deep Ellum scene in Dallas began with 3 guys who lived in a warehouse that started throwing keg parties. Almost everyone who has gone on to success from Dallas benefitted from that.

When I was 17, we rented a drive in theatre during the day for practically nothing and got 10 local bands to play. Local radio only mentioned it on the concert calendar, but word of mouth caused this to be sold out immediately and people were jumping over the fence like it was Woodstock. That small success opened doors for much better paying gigs locally for all of us, because we proved that people would come out to see us in the right venue.

So my point is that instead of complaining about the sucky places, why not make your own path? It only takes a bit of imagination and some sweat.

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This is the state of things Mike. I hate to break this to you but those open mics you do? Pay-to-play.

Nope. The ones I host - I get paid to host them, no cover charge to those attending. The ones I go to that others host - they are getting paid, again, no cover charge to those playing. If I choose (or those attending my open mics choose) to have a beer, or get something to eat, we're not 'paying to play', we paying (our choice) for something to drink or eat, not for the right to play.
I don't go to open mics that charge the players - and, yes, there are some of those around here.

Or, if you're going to play free anyway, why not play in a public place where there are people who could become fans? Like maybe the park, or a sidewalk downtown, or ask for a spot in the airport....whatever.

We pulled this off once about 10 years ago. There was a festival Downtown that drew thousands of people, so we asked our friend (the coffeehouse owner) if we could set up in front of his place on the sidewalk and we got the spillover from the festival to crowd in around us. Before you knew it, we had a sea of people sitting, standing, dancing & clapping. I didn't make a red cent but we picked up a lot of fans that day.

Oh you were almost there.....


In a case like that, you'd (plural: speaking about everyone) need to be out hand-shaking, passing out cards, and getting fan contact info and/or references.

One might be surprised at how many people you already know that have a helpful reference for you somewhere. Most gigs take time to establish a working relation with the owner to get paid well, and getting in doesn't happen until there is some relationship, real or implied.

So instead of cold calling a venue, it's always best when you can say something like, "Hey my friend Jimmy goes to your place all the time, and told me that we would be a good fit here". If the venue owner likes Jimmy, then you get an implied relationship over the guy who calls and says, "please book my band". It's better if you can just list a few venues you've played that are more prestigious than this one. (dont' rub it in, of course)

And then if you can say, "we have 300 people in our email list locally" you'll show the venue that you understand the purpose of playing in their club. Email/text lists are the new currency in successful bookings.

But again, until you are a touring group, you will be treated like a local band and expected to bring the crowd every time.

I've hosted and attended enough open mics to know what it is Mike. No one goes there and just drinks water, and if you do you're going to be waiting all night to play. Even if you're hosting (and getting paid, whatever that token amount might be) you still spend money on food, drinks, gas and other transportation costs, strings, equipment, time taken away from family, friends and other hobbies, etc. Open mics are OK for beginners and singer-songwriters with nowhere else to play. The rest of us are competing for gigs at the other venues, shitty as they may be.

I guess Detroit OMs must be different. Around here, there are sign-up lists with a definite order/time slot. So it doesn't matter if you buy a drink or bring your own water. BTW, when I host, I do drink water only. Same thing when playing a gig - water only. Open mics are more of a 'party' around here = - at least the ones I go to. A chance to interact with other musicians. "Token amount' - I daresay I get paid better than you got with your band did at the single set gig - normal pay is $100 to $200, depending on the venue, for a 3 hour open mic.
Gas, strings, etc - yeah, you pay for those regardless of what you do. That's not 'paying to play'. Paying to play is 1) having to pay the venue's soundman; 2) having to sell tickets or get fans/friends to come and pay a cover charge in order to get any pay. Yes, there are times when this can be beneficial - a chance to tighten up a set list, to record some video of the band live, or a chance to get a paying gig at the venue.

we will all be in resthomes before any of us strike real paydirt in the music industry..that;s why i love it here, I am socializing with regular joe's like myself and not uppity distinguished and well-moneyed musicians.. no snobs to contend with here either.. I can be a nobody and feel at home in the same sentence..

Many venue owners don't respect musicians because they see you having fun and they don't look @ it as work per se. When I add in all of my time and costs I don't make minimum wage.

You also have the local rich prick who'll play for a beer and a hamburger and he undercuts everyone's prices.

I would be glad to join a Union if one were available to me.

I'm glad that this issue is being addressed,and not ignored.We're the artist,the serious ones
always make sure to give their best performance. Some unions don't work,the one I was with
sure didn't.

We have to let the people know that good even great music still exsist,not just the pop candy
the industry pushes.Keep speaking out,never be silent. Persistence is the key.

When I first began playing in bands there were about 12 bard in a small downtown area here. There were 14 bars in a 6 block area on main street, and almost every one had live music 2 or 3 nights a week and some ran live music 6 nights a week. I imagine that other than the so called "go-go" clubs almost every bar had music at least for Friday and Sat. Area clubs out side of the downtown area, and there were dozens', also had bands playing. I did repair work on the side and I had 6 music stores that brought their work to me. And I got a lot of work.

Then came the "drunk driving" statutes. Cops used to park around the corner of the parking lots and on the side streets fining people, just like they do with speed traps these days. People became afraid that they might get caught even a little over the limit so they quit going to clubs to drink. When the crowds faded away the clubs hired DJ's for entertainment and that killed it even more for the musicians. Then the music stores began closing down for lack of business, and the repair work dwindled down as well.

Now days the only people who hire live bands are places like the Elk clubs, the Eagles clubs, and the Indian Casinos. And even at thet you had to up your game for the casinos. That only because the members want live music for dancing. for the most part. The pay sucked so the less talented musicians were the only ones who would play these low rent places. Casinos bring in nationally known bands, so obviously they are desperate also to some degree.

MAAD got the l;limits so low that if you even look at a beer you are in danger. You can hardly blame the bar owners for all of it. Who wants to pay even $100 a piece for a band when you are only getting a few customers a night. Those guys are in it to make money. You say you have time and money in travel, equipment, and all the practice time. A lot of bar owners have their whole life savings into buying or renting a club, keeping it furnished and open on bad weather days, and having only a handful of customers that cater to their establishment.
So exactly how many people can afford overhead, paying musicians, and paying outrageous taxes and license fees to "uncle Screw?"

You can't blame DJ's, club owners and whomever if the people do not show up to cover the costs. Really? How many beers would you have to sell a night to pay $300+ for a live band?

I'm not sticking up for the bar owners, a lot of them are real assholes, but can you see the bigger picture? If you owned a club you could easily see it is the way it is today.