philbymon wrote:
It remains an unproven theory that ppl are born with homosexual tendencies, but I could buy that.
What "has" been proven, only in the last few years, is that gay females, have brains that resemble straight males, rather than straight females. And gay men, have brains that resemble straight females rather than straight males. This is a PHYSICAL REALITY that can, and has been, measured, and here is the key... measured from INFANCY! These tests were done on infants, and then followed up on, as their lives progressed.
Closed case, on "that" aspect. The only thing left to address then, would be whether their BEHAVIORS could still be called "sinful" because they "act" accordingly, with what their brains are telling them. In other words... they have a NATURAL from BIRTH attraction to their same sex (physically, the same sex) and they find their own sex attractive, and feel more natural and comfortable following the design of their natural thoughts and emotions.
It could be argued that they should DENY their nature, and FORCE THEMSELVES to only have intimate relations with the opposite sex, but that would be even worse than, say, someone who literally throws up, from eating liver, being FORCED to eat liver DAILY, no matter how they felt, what it did to them psychologically, emotionally or even physically.
So, gay men, are in effect born with brains, that are MEASURABLY, female in design. But they find themselves in MALE BODIES (Like a Hermaphrodite, likely an anomaly in nature).
Where does the sin come in? Because there is a couple with TWO PENISES rather than ONE. Physical bodies, according to religious understanding in general, are designed to fit with the opposite sex.
But in THIS case, the DESIGN is apparently FLAWED.
This leaves two basic choices...
1) Deny who you are PHYSICALLY
2) Deny who you are EMOTIONALLY My argument, would be that to deny
WHO you are EMOTIONALLY may be a greater wrong, than denying
HOW you were born PHYSICALLY.
What makes us more... us? What we are PHYSICALLY, or who we are EMOTIONALLY and PSYCHOLOGICALLY?
If the answer is truly, that it is more important how our BODIES are formed, then this would lead to a whole series of problems. For example, to remain consistent, we would have to say that people born with no legs and arms, are sinners, or that they are people incapable of living full and meaningful lives. Or that women born WITHOUT reproductive organs, cannot be godly in their lives, because they CANNOT bear children, they cannot fulfill a PHYSICAL DICTATE and therefore, they are to be looked down upon.
I truly question, whether God would want us to be beings, that judged people primarily on their PHYSICAL APPEARANCE or make up, as opposed to caring more about how we feel inside, and how we treat others, etc...
These people are in a position, that it becomes necessary to deny one part of their being, or the other. Deny who they are EXTERNALLY or deny who they are INTERNALLY.
That is a horrible position to be placed in by NATURE. Knowing as I do, that our BODIES are merely a "shell" containing our souls and spirits, it would seem to me, that keeping in line with who they are INSIDE, is a better choice, than living a lie, and PRETENDING to be someone they are not, by living their lives according to how they were born PHYSICALLY.
The body is only a SHELL. Only a PACKAGE. It is what is WITHIN that is of most concern to God. It is what is INSIDE, that he relates to Himself... our souls, our spirits. God does not have a relationship with our BODIES, but only with our HEARTS.
If you would call this a "perversion of nature" because something is occurring for which it was not "designed", then you would also have to call "Oral Sex" a perversion, since a penis was not "designed" to be inserted into a mouth. But I imagine that ANY Christian here, who would oppose the relationships of two human beings on PHYSICAL judgements alone, would have no problem enjoying pleasure from their wives ORALLY.
If true, that would be called... HYPOCRISY. 
philbymon wrote:
As a person of other faith, I find it difficult to pass judgement on ppl for being born homosexual, or hermaphroditic, or whatever. What a person does in thier bedroom is of no concern to me. What they represent to the world at large does.
If a guy is one of the flaming types, or a woman is very masculine, I cannot help but feel a little uncomfortable, due to my upbringing more than anything else, I think. I'm trying to get over those responses. I have been approached by men before. It doesn't offend me like it might some ppl, & I can ward off thier attentions & offers quite nicely if the need arises without being too offensive, I believe.
I can live & let live, & I don't even see it as "unnatural," like so many ppl do. It just ain't my particular thing, but I don't think it is a sickness nor a perversion, really. It isn't anything that needs to be "solved," because it isn't a problem, other than the fact that these ppl must deal with a lot of pain visited on them by bigotry, imho.
Very impressed with your character here.
Bravo! philbymon wrote:
From that which I've read, I doubt that Jesus would condemn them, either, but I haven't seen where he addressed that particular issue anywhere in the scriptures. Craig would know more about that than I would.
Jesus did not speak on homosexuality when He walked the Earth. He spoke primarily on sins of the HEART, in line with His statement:
Matthew 15:11
What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " Jesus was far more preoccupied with what went on in the HEARTS of people, than their physical behaviors. And when you are speaking about someone born with a natural anomaly, allowances would have to be made, as they are, when someone is born as a hermaphrodite, and parents and doctors MAKE A HUMAN DECISION as to which sex the child will live as, and they surgically alter the child.
Paul "DID" condemn homosexuality in the New Testament, but an argument can be made that it was in context of "Male Prostitutes" who practiced homosexuality in worship to pagan gods, in temples. In any event, had they benefited from modern scientific understanding, it remains to be seen, how the apostles would have dealt with the issue.
What is clear to me, following Jesus' heart, is that Jesus would have far more favor on a practicing homosexual, who loved God, was kind to his neighbors, and loved and sacrificed for the betterment of those in his community, than a churchgoer, who maintained strict codes of "righteous" behavior, and looked good superficially, but in his heart, he was selfish, rarely going out of his way for his neighbors or community, and acted primarily in his own personal best interest.
philbymon wrote:
As for christianity, I find it interesting that a perfect god would need to evolve, but that seems to be what has occured, from what I read in the bible. Old Testament god hated & destroyed ppl for making thier decisions, yet the New Testament god is one that would accept those very same ppl, & give them peace in spite of thier being that which he did not design, evidently.
My view, is that God does not evolve at all. He is perfect and complete.
It is MAN'S ability to perceive God's revelations more clearly that has evolved, and continues to evolve.
Paul's words sum this up nicely...
1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
If even the apostles, who had Jesus in PERSON, still see "but a poor reflection" as opposed to seeing it all "clearly" then how much more would prophets of THOUSANDS OF YEARS
BEFORE JESUS, see an even POORER REFLECTION?
God has been revealing Himself THROUGHOUT HISTORY.
Key elements of God's revelations are grasped, and a few get locked onto and entrenched, which then SPREAD throughout communities and ultimately civilization itself, and the CONSCIOUSNESS of MANKIND is elevated as a result. When mankind has ascended to a higher level of understanding, and especially of PRACTICE at these higher levels, and man's consciousness elevates, it is then possible to REVEAL MORE and for man to GRASP MORE of God's heart and desires for mankind.
In a more PRIMATIVE and CHAOTIC time, it is the "LAW" that was necessary to embrace. Not just for God, but for the SURVIVAL OF THE SPECIES. Law forces people to slow down... to restrain themselves more, and to learn to be subject to some authority outside themselves.
When law had taken it's course, Jesus came.
The law was then CLARIFIED (although very astute prophets of the Old Testament, "hinted" at the things that were to come, or the mistakes being made in absolute adherence to the law, as opposed to the law of love.
The relationship to God before Jesus time, was more of a "master/servant" relationship. They related to God as a master who was to be OBEYED without question, and was to be FEARED.
As man's consciousness elevated, and Jesus could bring a new message, and a clarification of the old ways, He taught that we were CHILDREN of God... not SERVANTS. This concept was radical at the time. They had occasionally, very loosely, referred to themselves as sons of God, but not in a true FATHER/CHILD manner. It would have been a sin, for anyone to proclaim, that... "I" am God's son. This could only be said as a GROUP, not in a personal context.
Jesus came and preached that it "IS" a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP, and that we are, EACH OF US, children of our Father in Heaven.
So from cold and inflexible "LAW"... mankind received clearer revelation, and could then embrace... "THE LAW OF LOVE"... a higher understanding of God, and our relationship to Him... a more PERSONAL relationship to God.
LOVE - FORGIVENESS - SACRIFICE FOR OTHERS
These have been the qualities practiced and being perfected in mankind NOW, just as the "LAW" was being mastered through the thousands of years of Old Testament history.
So... it is not GOD that evolves, but "OUR UNDERSTANDING" and "OUR RELATIONSHIP" to God, that is evolving.
I believe it is entirely possible, that Old Testament prophets locked onto the DANGERS and DESTRUCTIVENESS of sin... they would have understood that sin must be HORRIBLY WRONG, because God will not even occupy the PRESENCE of where sin is, that there is NO SIN in God.
My feeling... they took this to an extreme, in trying to eliminate it from among the people. But without LOVE guiding them, they erred, went to extremes, and went BEYOND what God was revealing to them.
On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the foothold of relationships being built with God by prophets, had to be PROTECTED, and that the people were so vile... so far away from God's heart and understanding, that it was necessary to practice an almost ZERO TOLERANCE toward sin, and of obeying the law, in order to PROTECT THE
ENTIRE SPECIES ITSELF! It's possible that without such harsh tactics, man would have destroyed himself, before he ever had the chance to raise his consciousness, to a level, where society itself would survive.
I do "KNOW" that the prophets, being imperfect vehicles for revelation, made mistakes. Abraham made mistakes. Moses made mistakes. The greatest men in the Bible, those who loved God most, were devoted to God most... STILL... made mistakes.
The Bible
MUST be understood in the context, of God's heart and message, being FILTERED through sinful man. It doesn't mean to not trust the Bible, it means to proceed CAUTIOUSLY, with great care, great love, and great prayer.
When you have the living God dwelling within you, your CONSCIOUS should be a great judge of some of these things. The living God WITHIN YOU, should be able to direct you to the highest truth of what you are studying.
