General Music Chat

Man, I should really let this go, but I am going to post my own philosyphy (I can't spell today, sorry.).

Not matter who you are or what you do, you are an idiot.

If you are a christian, atheists think you are an idiot.
If you are an atheist, christians think you are an idiot.
If you are a man, woman think you are an idiot.
If you are a woman, men think you are an idiot.

Etc., Etc. AD Naueam.

Why in the world (other than sheer boredom) do you guys get online and dispute each others' beliefs? You're a bunch of idiots (see, my theory works).
Idiocracy is true, and it's true because we, as individuals are so wrapped up in our own little worlds that we can't see the big picture. It's never really about anyone but ourselves. The only true human motivation is our own happiness, and before any of you protest, I promise that I can re-direct your examples to support my statement.

And besides, I know how it works because I'm the king of idiots!

The only true human motivation is our own happiness, and before any of you protest, I promise that I can re-direct your examples to support my statement.

I know you are being tongue in cheek, but you also buy into that statement somewhat.

The only proof necessary to dispute your contention, is the history of martyrs who give their lives for others.

Not all of these believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their efforts, or even think about it, for that matter. Particularly those who make split-second decisions to put their lives in danger, in order to save someone else's life.

Many, if not most, do it simply because they put someone else's immediate needs or interests above their own. This is NOT a self-centered act, resulting from pursuing one's own happiness. On the contrary, it is precisely the OPPOSITE motivation, and is putting SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE and POTENTIAL HAPPINESS, above your own.

We don't even need to use martyrs as examples.

Any good parent, does this for their children, on a regular basis.

.

huh?

Martyrs do "the right thing, i.e., make a noble sacrifice, because they believe it's the right thing to do.

When someone does the right thing, it's because, somewhere deep down, it makes them feel good (even if it kills them in the process).

We are going to get into some pretty deep definitions here, but here's the way I look at it: A parent who sacrifices for their child does so because he or she loves that child. Love is a warm happy feeling that we as humans experience. Cats do not feel love as humans do. If a make cat watched one of his kittens run out in front of a car, he wouldn't sacrifice himself for it. If it was a meal, such as a mouse, he might risk it (I've seen it happen-eww, roadkill.).

My point is that the motivation behind actions is happiness (that warm feeling that comes from love or whatever). Are we different from cats? Yes and No. A human may very well throw themselves in front of a car for another random human being, but I believe, even in a split second situation, it's to do the right thing (and get that happy feeling from doing it). THis is probably circular-and I've suddenly realized that I am doing exactly the thing that y'all were doing-and I called you idiots for doing it...Man, I'm an idiot!

Sense of right, love, happiness, positivity, acceptance, etc. are all the same thing. As humans, it's our only real goal.
When someone does something wrong, MOST of the time they use one of these points to justify it. "I stole your valuables, but I needed money to feed my kids WHOM I LOVE").
Nobody ever says "I did some mean stuff to those people, and it's just because I'm a bad person". The motivation for their actions is always going to be something that, in the end is going to leave them with a sense of right. In other words, humans never do anything wrong. They couldn't live with themselves if they did.

Nope, it's not a law, it's a theory. Theories become laws when they are so widely accepted that you would appear to be stupid if you didn't accept it as fact. Obviously Newton's "law" wasn't much of a law because it was later found to be lacking. Religion is not taught in public schools because of the seperation of church and state, and also because it does not follow the scientific process. The other big problem is that there are too many religions; how could you possibly give equal time to them all? No, it's better if people learn about the Flying Spaghetti Monster on their own time.

hmm, guess I'm wrong about the theory/law theory... there is a fine line there cause many things are theory but have laws to support them... which apparently gravity doesn't...
but my point still stands... the definition of faith is to believe something with out proof. Evidence is not proof. IE At this point... no one I know can prove evolution... therefore to teach evolution in school is to teach faith... and we've decided that religion needs to be separate from school... so that sword must cut both ways. To be fair, IMO we'll have to eliminate gravity and evolution, the big bang, relativity... and many others.

I've decided that me is Idiosyncratic. Spell Check helps a lot this so it does.

A4

Well, it's nice to see that we can get back to the subject at hand.

I still think the American approach to education needs a complete overhaul. It's pretty clear that the way things have been done isn't working, yet here we are, still doing it after all these years of proving that it doesn't work!

We tell our children that education is an absolute must, if they wish to succeed, but then the system breaks down & they don't really learn anything useful or worthwhile that can be applied to thier jobs. Hell, they even need remedial work before they can start on college courses, more often than not, thanks to the public school system's lack of abillity to do its job.

Well, it's nice to see that we can get back to the subject at hand.

I still think the American approach to education needs a complete overhaul. It's pretty clear that the way things have been done isn't working, yet here we are, still doing it after all these years of proving that it doesn't work!

We tell our children that education is an absolute must, if they wish to succeed, but then the system breaks down & they don't really learn anything useful or worthwhile that can be applied to thier jobs. Hell, they even need remedial work before they can start on college courses, more often than not, thanks to the public school system's lack of abillity to do its job.

Man, Phil, you are absolutely right on. I've been saying this for years: if we want smarter kids, we have to change the way we educate them.


I think one of the great crimes of our educational system is that we wait all the way until college before we start trying to tap into what a person is interested in. Only when you get to college and start taking lots of different courses do you finally figure out where your passions lie. And that's unfortunate, because for a lot of kids their passions manifest at a very early age. But instead of a focused course that emphasizes their gifts and talents, we force them through a cookie-cutter educational system that does nothing to prepare them, and does nothing to enhance their passions.

I knew a kid when I was in 5th grade who was an absolute math wizard. But the school didn't do anything to help him enhance that particular talent. They didn't do anything to show him the value of his gift; they didn't give him any direction with it; he had no way to focus and harness his gift. I think he's a used car salesman now... Guy could have been an MIT grad and be making a difference somewhere, helping us invent new sources of energy...

We sometimes do it right with child prodigies, but for whatever reason we've created a very small, narrow idea of what a prodigy is. If a kid is uber talented at chess or playing the piano, he might get the extra attention and teaching and focus that he needs to become one of the best at that field. But if a kid shows an aptitude for algebra? Or marine life? You just gotta hope they get through high school and get into college and get the right professors and get the right study groups and can self direct their attention and energy...


I know, personally, I feel like I got lucky. I had no idea what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to go to college. I had no idea how smart I was in high school because I had trouble focusing, got bored easily, had some lousy teachers, and didn't apply myself. I didn't have anyone to mentor me or guide me or focus my direction. When I did get into college, I started out as an EE major only because that was what I did in the military, so I chose a major based on something I didn't even like to do! But fortunately for me - every so lucky - as part of the EE curriculum I ad to take an intro to Computer Science class... and the rest, as they say, was history. I found something I liked, and something I was good at. The stars aligned.

But for most kids - I don't think that happens. And I think if we'd start younger, really trying to figure out what these kids are good at, and what they enjoy doing, and if we'd change the entire way we teach and present subjects to them, I think more kids could find their calling...

I feel bad a lot of the time... I feel like I'm wasting my intellect. I watch shows like the HBO mini series about the search for a cure for Alzheimers, or I read about the Kanzius machine (non-invasive cure treatment for cancer), or I read about the folks who created a new breed of solar panel using focused lenses that's 7x more effective that a regular solar panel, and I think - that's what I should be doing. I should be helping. Maybe if our educational system would have been different, I would be. But I was just another cog in the great wheel...

Colors,

This one we totally agree on.

The educational system needs to be COMPLETELY overhauled, and modernized, and not by food stores donating computers to elementary schools either... we need to revolutionize HOW we teach kids, and mentor them, work with parents on what talents the kids have, what direction the kid wants to go in, and what direction the parents want them to go in too.

It is ESSENTIAL that we have a well-educated nation, to compete in a technologically driven world.

Re-selling what OTHER COUNTRIES are making and creating, is NOT going to keep the nation comptetitive in the world.

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Martyrs do "the right thing, i.e., make a noble sacrifice, because they believe it's the right thing to do.

...But that is a selfish motivation, because it turns out I FEEL GOOD, when I follow my conscience and do what I believe is right?

LOL


It's going to appear that I am about to MAKE your case, but I'm actually going to disprove it...



Many years ago, I was talking to my uncle about how he... "Needs to stop running the streets, and settle down with someone."

He said... "Why? I'm happy."

I said... "You're not happy. You just think you're happy!"

He laughed, of course, and said "If I think I am happy, aren't I feeling happiness?"

In other, words, if someone BELIEVES they are happy... guess what? For the duration that they believe that, for all intents and purposes... THEY ARE HAPPY!

But I wanted my uncle to SACRIFICE THE HAPPINESS he already had, and do the... "right thing".


Hedonism would be the highest virtue, if you were right Joe.


Nothing but the pursuit of what makes us "feel good".


One problem with your outlook, is that people "feel good" from wildly diverse things. Some guys "feel good" when they have successfully lied to a woman, to get her pants off, and then sneak out the next morning, never to be heard from again.

Pedophiles "feel happy" when they successfully kidnap and rape children.

Boy Scouts "feel good" about themselves, when they help old ladies cross the street.


So, you must be right? Right?

Everyone really -IS- pursuing what makes them "feel good".


Game over.


Not so fast.


First of all, you are speaking of something completely subjective. What defines happiness, is different for different people, but it is not unalterable... we often CHANGE what we DECIDE would make us happy or not.


Secondly, feelings are completely passive. "Feelings" are not a driving force, but a reactionary emotion. "I FEEL" as a result of something. It is NOT "feelings" which come first, but DECISIONS and ACTIONS! FEELINGS are an emotional RESPONSE to something. They can NEVER truly be the DRIVING force you make them out to be, because they are RESULTANT experiences, and not FIRST CAUSE.


So it is NOT the "feelings" themselves that are determining something, but the THOUGHT first! The DECISION first!

I may CHOOSE to DECIDE that something "SHOULD" make me happy, but I cannot know that, UNTIL I COMMIT to the act, and THEN FEEL WHAT I FEEL afterwards.

Maybe it will make me happy, maybe it won't.

I can gauge past experiences as a judgement mechanism, but what about new experiences?

If all our decisions were only REACTIONARY it would mean we had NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER over them, which is almost what you are suggesting. That we are helpless, and do whatever we do, in utter selfishness, always motivated by our own gratification, with NO EXCEPTIONS.

Only there -ARE- exceptions, which is your next problem.

Women who are in abusive relationships are not "happy" and you cannot say they stay because of any "warm fuzzy feelings". Even they, know they are not happy, but for whatever reason... they fear the alternative. Either being alone and making it on their own, or more often, they fear being beaten or murdered.

Whatever automatic mechanism you believe is in place, can obviously be short-circuited at times... like being under abusive CONTROL.

Isn't it short-circuited by depression as well? What happiness is there? Are they doing EVERYTHING they can to feel "warm and fuzzy" as you believe nature inclines them to do?

Are they getting a "feeling of happiness" because they actually enjoy depression? Wouldn't that mean they are actually HAPPY then, and NOT DEPRESSED, since obtaining the object of their desire, makes them happy?

If people WERE ALWAYS pursuing ONLY WHAT MADE THEM HAPPY, wouldn't the world ONLY be filled with smiling happy people? (apologies to R.E.M. - Oh wait... they were SHINY, not SMILING - LOL)

Is that in fact what we see in the world?

And if the response to that is... well THEY THINK they are happy by pursuing what they believe makes them happy... or they are sad, because they don't always GET what they are pursuing!

I would say...

1) Some people really -DO- get all that they pursue. And they can still be unhappy and become depressed.

2) Happiness does not only come from PURSUING. Because, life itself, is not MERELY a pursuit, but things HAPPEN to us, that are beyond our control and OUTSIDE OF OUR DESIRES. STUFF FIND US, and we have emotional reactions to them, and they have NOTHING to do with pursuing anything. Knowing this alone, means life is more diverse than merely MY PERSONAL PURSUIT! If I KNOW this, as everyone learns eventually, then wouldn't it affect my worldview? You've tried to reduce EVERYTHING people do, to a simple equation... "We only act out of selfishness, and do what makes us happy." ...when it is FAR MORE COMPLICATED than that.


3) To say that -ALL- martyrs, do what they do, out of selfishness, because they will experience some QUITE BRIEF moment of "happy warm fuzzies" is childishly naive. If all people were ONLY SELFISH, they would ONLY act in their own best interests... ALWAYS.

A soldier who jumps on a hand grenade, KNOWING he is about to die, can easily calculate, that whatever "fuzzies" dying is supposed to bring him for a MOMENT, would not compare to a FULL LIFE OF PURSUING selfish actions, were he to live longer and have all those decades to keep going after them.

A momentary "fuzzy" does not compare to a LIFETIME OF FUZZIES!

This alone disproves your assertion.

"Well, yeah, but... they are expecting eternity in Heaven as a selfish reward!"

"Atheists aren't."

"Agnostics aren't"

And they fall on hand-grenades too!

What has happened, is that a person's heart, for purely UNSELFISH reasons, has CARED FOR ANOTHER HUMAN BEING, more than he cared for his own life!

There is far more going on in the cosmos, and the hearts of mankind, than you are conscious of... which is sad, because I can only imagine the kinds of songs you would write, if your outlook was different.

Hopefully it will be one day, and when that occurs, life will have a MEANING that you seemed to have long ago rejected as possible.

Come on songwriter! - Minstrel to the world!

There are beacons of light that shine more brightly, than the personal light you cast on the selfish among us.

Remember, we often see, what we want to see.

Typically, we collect evidence for what we "WANT" to believe. Which is why a prayer liked I prayed, so many years ago, is so powerful...

"Lord, I DON'T EVEN CARE what the truth is any longer! I just need to KNOW the truth!!!"

You've got to become a blank slate to find the absolute truths in this life. So much happens, for so many reasons, it is a VERY tricky endeavor "collecting evidence", because there is SO MUCH "POTENTIAL" EVIDENCE out there, we can ALWAYS find evidence to fit a predetermined belief.

The world is BIGGER and MORE MEANINGFUL than this.

It is not all, a mindless selfish pursuit for personal gratification.


THERE -IS- MORE!!!

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Craig, you are an awesome (and long winded) guy. I really enjoy debating with you. I COULD sit here all day and try to dispute everything in that last post (and I do have arguments for you, believe me), but I simply don't have the time. I would have to re-read it 100 times!
I respect the facts that you are not only an intellectual, but also a man of conviction.
The funniest thing about this is that your last couple of lines sound like something that would come directly out of MY mouth (the whole thing about knowing the truth). Seeing the truth is my personal philosiphy (still can't spell that), and the journey towards that goal begins by putting in doubt ALL THINGS that you do not know from your own experience...that means everything that has been taught to you, you must now take with a grain of salt (allow yourself to doubt, at the very least).
I still believe that people are motivated by their own needs (or wants). I certainly believe that the "abused woman" stays, not because they are happy, but because the fear the results of an escape attempt..."the devil you know...". It is also my understanding that people in those situations have usually fallen under a sort of psychological control, in which they have been convinced that they are not "good enough". In those instances, they stay inorder to try and "be better" (even though it's not really them that is the problem). The need to be socially accepted outweighs the need to be personally happy in this case, but in actuality, they are two sides to the same coin. The point is that the motivation is STILL a personal one.

You wanna convince me that people are selfless? That's easy.
Get people to stop breeding. Seriously. 6.5 Billion people (6.66 billion by 2012, if we get a nice baby boom-think about that "number of man").
Right now we have the equivalent of five passengers in a fricken' Yugo, but everyone thinks it's not only okay to bring along a buddy, but their God-given right! Why? No one sees or cares about the big picture-how their actions affect all of us.

Get your civil servants to work for free-and hand them their combat boots when elected. Let them be the first ones on the frontline in our next war. (You and I know this will NEVER happen, because those people are just to Important to die for...well, those things that it's okay for other people to die for).

Get people to stop buying every stupid piece of crap that Wallmart puts on the shelf. It's a simple concept: Need less, forget Wanting more. We used to live in a society where it was okay for a guy to try and make a buck. Nowadays, that buck isn't good enough. That same guy has to financially rape everyone he can, and when they are bankrupt and so far in debt they can't recover, he'll toss them to the curb and guess what? Someone else will take their place.

And finally, get people to live and let live, and stop trying to cram their own beliefs down other people's throats....aw, sh!t. That one applies to me.

Evolution can be demonstrated in the way insects become immune to certain chemical poisons. ID cannot be tested or proven in any way, as it needs the intervention of the supernatural being, who seems to be rather shy about proving or disproving any & all claims regarding its existence.

Teach your religion, your superstition, & your dogma in your churches & in your homes. Teach science, math, language & other useful life skills in our schools.

My son's education was lacking by far, when compared to my own, & my own scholastic experience was lacking in many areas when compared to that of other countries. While those other countries' education systems have bettered themselves, our own has been diminished by the political, psychological, & religious communities.

Look at the books that have been banned in our school's libraries. As of the late 80's, you could not find a copy of "The Wizard Of Oz" in most public school district libraries. Know why? Because the book mentions a "good witch," which goes contrary to j/c beliefs, that tells us not to "suffer a witch to live." The right-wing j/c activists hollared about it being there for ANYONE to read, & so it was removed. The works of Mark Twain have been rewritten to appease the tender sensitivities of those with race relation issues. Ditto the works of H.P. Lovecraft, Edgar Rice Burroughs, etc, if these books aren't banned outright. You would be truly amazed at how much of your children's reading material is touched by the censor's pen in your school library.

Now look at the demise of the English language in our schools. Most students today cannot use proper tense in any given sentence, other than the present. Spelling? Do we really even need to know how to spell anymore? I mean, as long as we get the message across, it's okay, right?

Math. Need I say more? It's only the drug users who can convert metric to English system, isn't it? (28 grams = 1 ounce, so a 1/4 is 7 grams, right? What IS that in decimals, anyway?)

Science has been discussed only in terms of ID vs. evolution theory. What about the actual teaching of scientific processes? It's barely touched upon. Dissecting frogs & worms is considered barbaric, & students are often excused from that distasteful learning experience for "moral reasons." There are lots of lessons on the dangers of alcohol in the science class, though, cuz we simply must have those moral lessons taught at every opportunity, & this is the perfect class to show how a worm or a flower dies in alcohol.

History has always been a subject that is subject to the thought of the moment, & "truth" is rarely if ever actually taught. Many history classes still erroneously concentrate on how slavery was the central issue in our own Civil War. These days, though, history seems to be less important than at any other time in our education's past. There is far less emphasis on why things happened, because we might have to touch upon someone's religious beliefs in an unflattering way. Oh dear!

Social Studies - many students still don't know how our gov't works, in spite of this class. Why?

Geography is no longer taught, cuz maps can change on a month by month basis in some areas of the world, or at least that's the excuse they give us. But our students cannot find our nation's capital on a map, or thier own state capital. How stupid is that?

Reading & writing have been dummied down so that everyone can be equal in this area. We wouldn't want those slower students to feel badly about themselves if they can't keep up.

Our teachers are told to continually be on the watch for any student who needs extra help, so that the school may get extra funding for thier special educational needs. Thus, many students are wrongly labelled as ADHD, ADD, OCD, and whatever other initiallized problem they can find, which results in the erroneous drugging of the child, & special classes to solve problems that don't even exist.

In some ways, our educational system is being run as if it were a soul-less corporate business. The students fail to be educated even as the system rakes in more money, yet they claim that they don't have enough funding to provide text books. They claim that teacher income is nearly at the poverty level. So, where is the money going? Does it go for security? Sports? Special ed classes? Food? Heating & lighting? I'd really like to know, cuz these problems really didn't seem to exist when I went to school in the 60's.

Back then, we had books. Yeah, they were used books, but educational thought didn't change from year to year all that much. And if a student ruined his book, his parents were made to pay for it at the end of the year, before the child could graduate to the next level, or even get his report card.

I went to school for 12 years without being shown a popular movie that had nothing to do with school curriculae. My son was shown a movie twice a month when he went to elementary school. The movies shown were often Disney flicks. Um....WHY?

The main emphasis in our modern school system focuses on the child's self esteem. It is considered far more important that the child FEEL GOOD about himself, whether or not he can actually contribute to anyone or anything in any positive way. Of course, without an adequate education, his chances of being able to contribute are severely lessened, but that doesn't seem to matter as long as he FEELS GOOD about his core self, so that's where our schools are placing thier efforts. This train of thought started in the 50's, with the advent of that stupid hippie "everyone's a winner" concept, & we've taken it so far now that it's become our mantra.

We have continually REMOVED curriculae from the scholastic experience in our efforts to improve it, & replaced the missing classes with fluff. In the decades before I went to school, ettiquette was taught as part of the curriculum. Yes, you would be taught how to talk to ppl, how to treat ppl in ethical & socially acceptable ways. This was very useful for those students who didn't come from the more elite social strata, & gave them a leg up in thier future efforts to improve themselves. Dance was taught, which tended to show ppl how to reach out for each other in acceptable normal ways. Now, in many school districts, they're speaking of the removal of music & art classes, calling them "fluff," while they continue to pound away at our children with Guidance Class to improve thier self esteem, & to lecture them ad nauseum about the dangers of drugs & alcohol, in favor of actually teaching them how to relate, how to better themselves, or even to express themselves in artful ways.

It's time to reverse this stupid trend in our schools. It's time we started teaching life lessons again. If you're a loser, you are NOT a "winner," out in the real world, by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't put in the work, you will not succeed. It's time the school systems started to teach that.

As long as we try to keep the kids moving through the system with as few true challenges as possible, they will not be able to face challenges out in the real. But for some strange reason, that's exactly what we do.

Philyby, that was hillarious!


To quote Rage Against the Machine: "They dont gotta burn the books they just remove 'em"

But, just as a small aside - my 13 year old is doing math that I never touched untill I was a sophmore in high school in the 80's.
Its not an accelerated class either.

So the state of the system probably depends on where you live.

I found proof that idiocracy is true. Actually, I've stumbled across proof that our society is doomed as a whole.

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/my- ... -m0tk.html

The quote that puts the nail in the coffin:

Inspiration for the sex robot sprang from the September 11, 2001 attacks. ''I had a friend who passed away in 9/11,'' Hines said. ''I promised myself I would create a program to store his personality, and that became the foundation for Roxxxy True Companion."

LOL

I'm having too much fun today, Craig.

I use j/c to mean the judeo/christians, btw, it doesn't mean "Jesus Christers." I DID mention that they were the activists, too.

Carry on...

I thought you meant 'Jesus Christers'.
So... maybe it did rub some people the wrong way.

Just sayin.