General Music Chat

ILLEGALS TOOK MY JOB:
If your job is so elemental that someone can come here with nothing, unable to speak the language, and take it from you: tuff sh*t moron. I don't want/need you in my country any more than them.
Do you know of anyone who has lost their job to an illegal? No one complains about illegal doctors immigrating here do they?

Mikey, living in Arizona would make you on the front-lines. I live in Vegas which is just a neighborhood over from you. Over the recent past years Vegas was the fastest growing city in the US. Being a woodworker in the construction field, believe me, I've been more on the front-line than you can imagine. J Haley too (construction worker in Texas).

Let me explain to you how offensive it is to me to hear someone call me a "moron" for having lost my job to illegal immigrants.

I have been considered an expert in the field of a few different fields of custom woodworking. During a time when I had 10-years of experience behind my resume, I was hired to run a shop. To be a forman, to build the high end projects, and train, and teach others how to do the work. I was making $22/hr and I was training rookies who were making $7/hr.

I would be handed a group of 2-3 workers a day to have as "helpers" and students of woodworking. Much to my demise, I was a kickass teacher. I taught them how to use all of the machinery properly, how to maintain them properly, and how to build the projects with precision.

Once they had reached a level the owners had considered "good enough", I was "let go" in favor of workers who were being paid minimum wage. But their reward wasn't all in vain. They did receive a $0.25 raise.

So you tell me.. Am I moron who doesn't know how to do the work?

Do you really "not want/need me in this Country"?

A) don't assume I know nothing about woodwork: I worked in that industry for several years b4 college. The skill it requires to build the high end stuff -the custom stuff... a perfect 45' radius
cannot be 'learned in a year, two years or even five years.
The fact of the matter is that with cnc routers most of the fabrication has been taken out of it - ie they don't 'need' the skill anymore - they can cut a 45' radius perfectly every time... and have an unskilled worker put it together... that has nothing to do with immigration - just innovation and a change in the very nature of things - cause folks won't pay for things that are handbuilt anymore.
B) try not to be too offended: they didn't take your job - because they aren't training others like you were... and they shouldn't be able to replicate new designs...
and frankly: if you CAN teach someone to do your job in a matter of months: it isn't that complicated and you were being overpaid... I'm sorry if that offends but that's the truth. Either they took your job and your job wasn't that difficult, or your skill was no longer need and they got rid of you and don't plan on doing any 'new' designs. Either way they didn't replace you. Do you see the fallacy in your logic? I don't mean to offend, I am sorry you were phased out, but I think it's important that folks don't get the impression you ARE the example - you aren't.
again, it's terrible that you lost your job, please forgive the offence that my remarks inspired: but remember they are fairly accurate despite your conviction.

let me make one more point: say for a minute we import every mexican in mexico and add mexico to the us altogether... the avg wage drops for a minute(5/10/50 years)... then starts going back up... because they won't be able to continue to exploit the gap in standards of living... then mexico is part of the us... then guess what happens? outsourcing. you see? the problem is that globalization is happening: immigrants taking your job is only one symptom... and keeping them out is addressing the wrong problem.

Mike, you are right to some degree in your argument about skilled vs unskilled not being the issue. But they are also right, that traditionally workers from poorer countries WILL do higher end work much more cheaply. Compared to how they WERE living, it is still alot of money to them, whereas it virtually devastates the salaries previously enjoyed by experienced laborers HERE.

IT DOES BRING WAGES DOWN, the more illegals from poorer countries come in.

But a real savings bonanza, as mentioned by me earlier, is that these businesses are not paying workman's comp on these laborers. Roofers especially, are required by law, to be covered by workman's comp and at very high premiums, because of the danger of the job.

Illegals are more willing to take a little money and run, and are not concerned whether they are covered under workman's comp or not.

This is VERY good for the bottom line of the business, and maybe even the consumer, who get contractors more cheaply as a result. But this comes directly at the expense of the American laborers.

Another unfortunate side effect, is that a good deal of the money they earn, gets sent back to their own countries, which contributes to our deficits, and means less money being spent to purchase things HERE from American businesses.

.

Craig - Ya know, it's one thing to be sure of yourself...it's quite another to delude yourself.

You have crossed the crazy line, Craig. Get yourself some help for that messiah complex of yours, or it's gonna bite you in the ass in more ways than you can count.

You are out of touch with reality. You are so full of yourself that when the curtain falls you don't know what to do, do you? You are still too big to contain in that one body, in your own mind.

Well, take it from me - you are a pompous ass with delusions of grandeur. "I am not divisive. It's what I say that's divisive." What a complete moron you must think I am! Shove off ya Jesus wannabe & get some help or go sit in a corner & have yourself all the "visions" you want. From the way you speak, it's totally clear that you are no one's answer to anything at all. You're way too full of ego to be of any use whatsoever to anything or anybody.

Read over your posts, ya boogieman! You have to spend 10% of the time defending yourself...but it isn't the defense that makes me laugh horselike atcha...it's the glorification of yourself - "I have visions" - "I am a fair guy so all your arguments are moot" - "I believe that God put me here at this point in time for a reason" - "I - "I" - "I" - "I" - "I" - "I" - ya completely self-absorbed droney divisive little peckerwood! Take your head out of your own ass for a moment & BREATHE SOME REALITY, DUDE!

In this post alone, Craig, the following ppl have tried to reason with you, or tried to either distract your divisiveness or make light of things - PAGE ONE; Chippy, Mikev, ratsass - PAGE TWO; philby, Rev Mike, Chippy, Howlin J, bob - PAGE THREE; philby, Wraun, Cap Scott, Prevost, celticpiping - but here we are on PAGE FOUR, & you're STILL spouting off your bullshit to one & all.

I think you're right, Craig. This forum isn't "big enough" for you or your "message." Go get help. Go start up something somewhere else. By all means, ya twit, GO!

Whatever you do, DO try to be more clear & less wordy in the future, & stick to a single topic at a time. You're all over the map. Look at your original post in this thread. Do you REALLY believe that you are helping this nation here? Do you REALLY believe that you are accomplishing ANYTHING with your rant of the day, which turns into the rant of the week, or month, or more? Do you REALLY believe that there are that many ppl who will take you seriously? Do you REALLY think we should?

The mere SIZE of your posts tell us more than we need to know about you. They tell us that you don't really have that much to say, for one thing. They tell us that you LOVE to hear yourself talk, for another. They tell us that you think that what you have to say is more important than anything anyone else has to say, & you'll counter anyone with so many pages of bullshit that you hope someone is BOUND to take you seriously, or bow to your verbosity. (Is that even a word? It certainly applies!) They tell us that you want to show off how much you know, & that you are so needy in the attention dept that you'll do just about anything to get that attention, even if it breaks up relationships, or causes group strife, because YOU are whats important, here...MORE THAN ANYTHING OR ANYONE ELSE, INCLUDING YOUR OWN MESSAGE!

I haven't bought it yet. Shut up already. Your message isn't even your own. It's stolen bits from here & there.

Take a hint. Take a pill. Take your toys & go home. Take some advice that's truly meant well, & get some help!!!!

And quit lying to me. You said that you were giving up the forum as your personal own, & starting up a new one at your own site. What happened? Did you decide you wouldn't get anyone to read it? You haven't even TRIED yet, Craig! GO DO IT!

Quit being yet another of life's little frustrations. You are truly far less deserving of this many words than you may believe. I'm just fed up with you.

Look at some REAL "messiahs" in the various religions.

Were they the self-absorbed types? Did they defend themselves so vehemently? Were they so wordy that they lost their flocks to boredom? Did they set themselves up to bust up possible friendships between ppl? Did they cause problems & strife in the ranks of their own friends? Did they stay in one spot & drive their points home until ppl wanted to tear their own ears off?

Take a tip from the true masters, Craig. Move on with your message, if you wanna be a messiah. Go forth & SPREAD THE WORD.

Or, better yet - go to a good psychiatrist & find out why you are what you are, why you do what you do, why you find it so necessary to make such outrageous claims & try so hard to get so much attention, even at the cost of others. I'll bet they have a pill for that. TAKE IT, cuz it isn't America that's on the verge of collapse, it's YOU!!!!

Phil,

I asked for a break from the personal attacks.

Can you give it a rest now?

.

You also said that you were moving this sh*t onto another site - I will if you will, bud.

Have a nice day

A) don't assume I know nothing about woodwork: I worked in that industry for several years b4 college. The skill it requires to build the high end stuff -the custom stuff... a perfect 45' radius
cannot be 'learned in a year, two years or even five years.
The fact of the matter is that with cnc routers most of the fabrication has been taken out of it - ie they don't 'need' the skill anymore - they can cut a 45' radius perfectly every time... and have an unskilled worker put it together... that has nothing to do with immigration - just innovation and a change in the very nature of things - cause folks won't pay for things that are handbuilt anymore.
B) try not to be too offended: they didn't take your job - because they aren't training others like you were... and they shouldn't be able to replicate new designs...
and frankly: if you CAN teach someone to do your job in a matter of months: it isn't that complicated and you were being overpaid... I'm sorry if that offends but that's the truth. Either they took your job and your job wasn't that difficult, or your skill was no longer need and they got rid of you and don't plan on doing any 'new' designs. Either way they didn't replace you. Do you see the fallacy in your logic? I don't mean to offend, I am sorry you were phased out, but I think it's important that folks don't get the impression you ARE the example - you aren't.
again, it's terrible that you lost your job, please forgive the offence that my remarks inspired: but remember they are fairly accurate despite your conviction.

let me make one more point: say for a minute we import every mexican in mexico and add mexico to the us altogether... the avg wage drops for a minute(5/10/50 years)... then starts going back up... because they won't be able to continue to exploit the gap in standards of living... then mexico is part of the us... then guess what happens? outsourcing. you see? the problem is that globalization is happening: immigrants taking your job is only one symptom... and keeping them out is addressing the wrong problem.

Mikey. I know how it looks on the surface. But logic does not always create such an end scenario. By no means was I over-paid. Union jobs at the time paid $28/hr for journeyman. You should also know that due to the greed of 2-of the companies that I helped design their shops and train their under-qualified "helpers", once I was "let go", the companies went under before a year was up. The workers moved on to different companies now fully trained and taking jobs at less wages than American workers, but slightly more than they were being paid. And the companies were left with no real expert to keep the business running at the ground level.. It's something that happens when you have owners who have never worked at the ground level, but rather think they are such daft businessmen that it doesn't matter. It's not a fallacy in my thinking. It's your ignorance to the issue that is the real fallacy. I hope that doesn't offend you either.

Look man.. Spin it all you want. You're shooting from the hip with your scenarios. If you want to try to defend your stance, be my guest. But you and I both know that it would just to be to save face. I don't have the time to write a dissertation to appease you. I have shows on Wed. and Thu. to get ready for.

By no means was I over-paid. Union jobs at the time paid $28/hr for journeyman.

shredd, try not to take everything so personally. I only said that if they were able to REPLACE you with folks that make $7 an hour you were overpaid - I still don't believe that was the case because the 'replacement' would have to have done the EXACT job you were doing. You didn't turn them into journeymen cabinetmakers after 6months right?

It's difficult not to get personal when you debate someone... very few ppul are capable of it... but lets try because this argument isn't important enough for either of us to hold a grudge against the other.
I can see how it would make somebody angry to hear me say that I don't care if they lose their job... and perhaps I should have cushioned my opinion on that matter, but it's how I feel. It doesn't make me an evil person to hold a dif opinion.

You should also know that due to the greed of 2-of the companies that I helped design their shops and train their under-qualified "helpers", once I was "let go", the companies went under before a year was up. The workers moved on to different companies now fully trained and taking jobs at less wages than American workers, but slightly more than they were being paid.

I'm not sure how you could know where the workers went. Sounds like conjecture, but lets assume for the sake of debate that it isn't... (again try not to take it personally - just calling it as I see it).

"fully trained" - nobody becomes a journeyman after six months of training. Sure, they may have taken some jobs that might have paid $12 an hour... in lieu of being paid $7 ah hour... but these are not 'skilled' positions. This is how capitolism works: we continue to find cheap labor and once we can't make it cheaper here we outsource. AGAIN, MY POINT IS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE BEARING THE BRUNT OF THE ANGER WHEN THEY AREN'T THE ACTUAL PROBLEM.

Same thing is happening at the american auto mfgs, because the americans building those cars were in unions demanding more money and eventually the bubble burst and their work was outsourced. NO OFFENSE TO AMERICANS WORKING FOR AUTO MFG'S. This is the way capitolism works. This doesn't make them bad people... and it's no surprise that they are all angry... it sux that you spend your life working for someone and they have zero loyalty - but capitolism is about capitol - not loyalty.

god, I sound like a Marxist all of the sudden. Let me point out that I don't have any idea what the solution is: I just know the problem.





"And the companies were left with no real expert to keep the business running at the ground level.. " again this means they didn't replace the 'expert'.



"It's something that happens when you have owners who have never worked at the ground level, but rather think they are such daft businessmen that it doesn't matter. It's not a fallacy in my thinking. It's your ignorance to the issue that is the real fallacy. I hope that doesn't offend you either. "

I'm AM ignorant of the issue you are talking about... because I still don't see how they 'replaced' you, nor how this would prove that. You almost make my point here. You have progressed from stating that the immigrants replaced you to pointing out how the biz failed... it SOUNDS an awful lot like they got rid of their high pay employees, in order to cut costs, but still couldn't compete... It's the nature of the market that continually tries to make it cheaper that is my point.

Look man.. Spin it all you want. You're shooting from the hip with your scenarios. If you want to try to defend your stance, be my guest. But you and I both know that it would just to be to save face. I don't have the time to write a dissertation to appease you. I have shows on Wed. and Thu. to get ready for.

you sound like your hurt shredd... if you can't argue w/o getting mad they you probably shouldn't argue...

this last statement makes no point at all, just trys to devalue a point of view by getting personal instead of making any sort of meaningful counterpoint.

Save face... every time I debate something I do it knowing the possibility that I'm wrong... that wouldn't diminish me, I will even consider changing my stance in the event that you make an argument that convinces me. Feel free to walk away from that... but I beg that you don't do it mad at me. Just agree to disagree and we'll both leave the argument dignified.

Wraun,

This gets old. How are you inconvenienced.... dicussions about other things on occassion?

Who said I was inconvenienced? Not me, I am not inconvenienced, I am dissapointed and I'm thinking that I am glad I only bought the 1 month subscription. Do you like knowing that you're having a negative effect on the revenue stream of the site that you think you're contributing to?

EXAMPLE:
"How may of you guys saw the movie Spinal Tap?"
"I love that movie"
"I saw it a long time ago. Remember how their drummers always die mysteriously? That's some funny sh*t!"
"Yeah, imagine the insurance rates that band's label would be paying if that happened in real life."
"Well, that's what bothers me about the Health Care system here..."
"We have the best health care in the world"
"Not if you don't have health care it isn't"
"I agree with that dude, cause I recently went to the doctor and found out I have diabetes, and I am worried like hell"
"Look bro, I am a registered nurse, and I am telling you, change your eating habits NOW, not later... I have watched a lot of people with this..."

"You guys are right. I'm gonna take this seriously. I appreciate all the advice!"
Some of this is based in reality....

That I find hard to swallow man... Seriously, you can't even stay on topic in one of your own paragraphs, let alone a thread or forum.
Really, if you or anyone else wants to talk about another subject, fine but like on any other forum, it should be relevant and worth discussing. Your fear-mongering, world-ending crap is tiresome, bandwidth wasting garbage that doesn't even qualify as a joke.

Craig Maxim Said:

Another unfortunate side effect, is that a good deal of the money they earn, gets sent back to their own countries, which contributes to our deficits, and means less money being spent to purchase things HERE from American businesses.

I am not going to get into a debate about illegal aliens, but I just have to say, the statement above is true, but should enlighten you to the fact that it is purely greed and laziness that requires the american worker to need so much money, if the illegals can work for less than minimum wage and still afford to live here and send money back to mexico, but American workers making 40 dollars an hour are losing their homes because they cant afford to make payments...greed and laziness

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with ya, Rev. Many of these illegals are perfectly willing to live communal lives in tight quarters as they make their ill-earned low wages until they can return home & live like relative kings.

We, however, live HERE, & are trying to get ahead in THIS country. That ain't greed. It's more expensive here. Giving it away to illegals & calling us too greedy &/or lazy just makes all of us that much poorer, while it makes the company's stockholders richer. Should this trend continue, what will be left for us?

.....................................

Wraun,

The principle value of paid membership is that you can contact potential band members directly through the site, and your upload capacity for songs is increased.

None of which has anything to do with the forums.

Once again, anyone who finds my few threads of doom and gloom that offensive have simply never participated in many discussion forums. Trolls abound on other forums, and they are regularly insulting and personally offensive in the crudest of ways.

My posting of a few topics I find meaningful cannot compare to people being crude and personally offensive, and doing so regularly and purposefully merely to hurt others.

You don't like my opinions. Fine. What's wrong with that? We disagree. Why take it to this level? You just got here.

I have met people personally, that believe in truly whacky conspiracy theories, like there being listening devices embedded in the thread of the American One Dollar Bill. I have known others who believe in shape shifters, the idea that key government officials are actually aliens having shifted form to LOOK like a regular human being.

Take note too Phil...

Do these people bother you that much?

They don't bother me. They are even entertaining sometimes, but at the worst, I laugh their theories off, no matter how vigorously they defend them or bellieve them.

For me to have this kind of effect on you two, recognize, you ARE taking me seriously to some degree. Argue it all you want, but you wouldn't be angered by it otherwise. You would be amused instead. Nothing more.

Think about it.

And Phil,

There is no challenge going on here. I consider, well, considered, most of you guys as friends, and I shared some things FINALLY (after what? 1 and a half years) about deep personal spiritual experiences I have had. It is pretty poor form to mock people for their religious or spiritual beliefs. I guarantee you, that proportionally, there are going to be people HERE in this very forum, who have experienced what they would call Miracles, who have seen a spirit or appartition, who have dreamed something that came true later, and so on. Statistically, MANY people have had such experiences. They may share them, or they may give in to people like you, who would mock their experiences and so they only share them with close friends or relatives. But I guarantee you, there are some here that have stories to tell themselves.

And you can call me demented all you want, but how is it that psychics and others who have given the same testimony are demented as well? What kind of conspiracy would be in place for that to occur?

I haven't even begun to share the spiritual experiences I have had, and dreams and visions that have come true, etc...

Because YOU are not spiritually open, does not mean that others are not.

You won't bully me.

I have never been afraid or ashamed of my relationship to God, or the spiritual gifts I have. And I never will be. I'm not ashamed that my wife has the ability to converse with people who have died. I have seen her do it, on many occassions. She can't stand it, but it is hard for her to turn them off. THEY KNOW she is the one in the room, on any given occassion THAT CAN hear them. She has said things about some of my deceased relatives that SHE CANNOT POSSIBLY have known, and I have witnessed her do it with others as well. THEY KNOW she is for real, for the same reason I do. The things she says are so detailed and personal, that they could not be made up, and she would have had NO OTHER WAY of knowing them. THERE IS A LIFE BEYOND DEATH. Most are unable to cross that barrier, but many are.

The experiences I have shared here, for the most part, have included other people. Do you want their phone numbers? Emails? You won't want them, because you DON'T CARE whether these things are true. In fact, you have a more vested interest in DELUDING YOURSELF that these things DO NOT EXIST. Because if they did, it would mean you may have to change the way you approach life.

And that... you are unwilling to do.

There is a profound saying: "People prefer a KNOWN hell, to an UNKNOWN heaven."

.

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with ya, Rev. Many of these illegals are perfectly willing to live communal lives in tight quarters as they make their ill-earned low wages until they can return home & live like relative kings.

We, however, live HERE, & are trying to get ahead in THIS country. That ain't greed. It's more expensive here. Giving it away to illegals & calling us too greedy &/or lazy just makes all of us that much poorer, while it makes the company's stockholders richer. Should this trend continue, what will be left for us?

Lets think here, if this trend were to stop, and illegals didn't work for the below minimum wage they currently do, and it was left to companies to have to pay american worker wages, the economy would completely collapse. Prices would increase tenfold to pay for what the american workers would require between salary and healthcare...

I'd still like to know if you are a reverend, Rev Mike? I did ask. If so what Church?

Yes I am a Satiman in the Fellowship of the Enlightened, the title is the equivelent of reverend, but I use reverend for secular purposes.

Craig...

John 4:19

Mark 6:4

This forum has long been your home, but its time. Get to work now.

You miss this one craig?