General Music Chat

I agree Craig. Titles are important that's why I worship with a church that gives the honor to him in name. The Church of Christ. Since we have talked about it so much I'm surprised you omitted from your list.

Ommited the Church of Christ?

The examples I listed were of naming churches after the Bible, which shows a predeliction toward elevating the Bible, even over God.

Your church name doesn't do this.



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Unless the King James Bible is God (or any of the original texts) then, this must be speaking of the LIVING word... Jesus Christ, and NOT the WRITTEN word, which is derived from the INSPIRATION of God.

I know you don't believe that Jesus is LITERALLY the King James Bible do you?


2 Timothy 2:15

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That's my fav verse! Yes the word is Jesus is God is the holy spirit. The bible is the living word. It is THE way God communicates with us. It is dependable. We study it to learn how to live, how to obtain salvation, and how to worship and please God.

I agree Craig. Titles are important that's why I worship with a church that gives the honor to him in name. The Church of Christ. Since we have talked about it so much I'm surprised you omitted from your list.

Ommited the Church of Christ?

The examples I listed were of naming churches after the Bible, which shows a predeliction toward elevating the Bible, even over God.

Your church name doesn't do this.



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Yeah I meant you omitted it from the good list.

Yeah I meant you omitted it from the good list.

Oh.


LOL

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That's my fav verse! Yes the word is Jesus is God is the holy spirit. The bible is the living word. It is THE way God communicates with us. It is dependable. We study it to learn how to live, how to obtain salvation, and how to worship and please God.

Here's the mistake you are making on this Paul.

Text... WORDS are a "method" of communicating an idea. There are MANY ways of communicating ideas, and text is NOT THE LEAST capable method, but it is hardly the BEST method either. Talking directly is a far superior method, because it is NOT LIMITED by space, as a book with a fixed number of pages is. I can also QUERY someone I am learning from, to clarify and better understand what is being taught to me.

In a worldly example...

I can obtain a college degree ONLINE.

But this degree I receive is NOT anywhere near as respected by the world, as if I were in a college receiving the same degree. I can read the same books as someone in a college, and I can learn the same basic information as someone in a college. But because I am not learning from a PROFESSOR, then my learning will not be as respected. A professor is having a give and take relationship with me. He is the EXPERT, not THE BOOKS. The books are written by professors. They are a limited WRITTEN EXPRESSION of the ideas the professors want to convey to us, but they can only contain a very limited amount of what a professor knows. And when I am dealing with the profesor DIRECTLY. There is little doubt that I know my stuff, because he is there watching me, questioning me, testing me, and MAKING SURE that I am understanding the information.

You cannot compare learning from text alone, and learning from the professor himself.

Similarly... You cannot compare learning from the Bible alone, and learning from the God, who INSPIRED the Bible's messages.

ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM...

The text is a RE-CREATION of the original inspiration.

God gives a PURE revelation to a prophet or seeker. That revelation is then FILTERED through the seeker's brain and heart and experiences on a personal level. That prophet or seeker, then has to RECREATE, or put in tangible form, what He saw, or received, to the best of his ability. He may capture the ESSENCE of what he received, but it can never be as perfect as if it were DIRECT from the source, and then UNFILTERED.

To put it another way...

Let's switch TEXT for IMAGES.

God gives us a premonition of future events. We may CLEARLY SEE, basically a VIDEO, in our mind's eye, of actual people and events, that will occur in the future.

As a prophet, I then need to SHARE that vision of the future with others. I can WRITE what I saw, and I can DRAW or PAINT what I saw, but I cannot easily FILM what I saw. A video would leave little chance for error or reinterpretation. But because that is not available to me, I have to WRITE or PAINT what I saw.

Let's say that God showed me an actual person, who would come in the future. I could write down in text... "And I saw a man in his 40's who had white hair, and was tall and of medium build, with kind eyes...." etc...

Better, would be to PAINT a picture of what I saw. But this would depend on my own ability as an artist, to accurately portray his image. Even a professional artist (like a police sketch artist) could be told to "change this" or "make his chin wider" - but even this, will not be as ACCURATE or as PERFECT an expression, of what God Himself SHOWED ME in my own heart or mind.

You could easily understand, that PAINTING an image, would get me a GENERAL and CLOSE PROXIMITY of what someone looks like. But it can never FULLY capture what that person looks like.

Text is no different.

Prophets can get IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD of correctly expressing the visions and revelations that God gave them, but they can never ACCURATELY or PERFECTLY reproduce what was placed in his mind and heart, through the VERY limited medium of words or text.

That is why, it is ALWAYS better, that we develop the kind of relationship with God, where He GIVES US the revelations OURSELVES. In our OWN hearts and minds, rather than fully depending on someone else's "2nd generation" or "3rd generation" of COPYING someone else's revelations.

Back to the PAINTING scenario...

God gives a revelation of an image of a man. (1st generation)

I paint what I saw. (2nd generation)

Others then COPY my painting (3rd generation and so forth)

With each RETELLING, there is a real possibility, and even liklihood, that "something" gets lost in the retelling.

The Bible is an EXCELLENT "textbook" to learn from. To BEGIN a relationship with God's truths. But it is a TEXTBOOK and NOT the PROFESSOR HIMSELF teaching me.

I'm sure you can understand that analogy.

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All of that shows a clear lack of faith on your part in God's ability to fulfill his clear promise that the bible contains all we need to know pertaining to life and godliness.

II Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

You believe he created the whole universe but you think he would allow the writers (mere pencils) to dilute his will?

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

You believe he created the whole universe but you think he would allow the writers (mere pencils) to dilute his will?

We have free will Paul. We are also limited beings.

God apparently allows MULTIPLE VERSIONS of the Bible in the SAME LANGUAGE, doesn't He? He allowed people to LOSE or allowed to DECAY, the original written texts didn't He? He allows mistakes in printing houses. He allows people to burn Bibles. He allows confusion on a massive scale, when the Catholic Church holds to a certain number of books of the Bible, which are DIFFERENT than the protestant versions of that supposedly same Bible. He allowed MEN to ARGUE and DEBATE over which books got put into the Bible over a period of HUNDREDS... HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

If God was controlling every aspect of his "book" being put in the right order, and with the right manuscripts, then WHY... WHY PAUL... did it take HUNDREDS OF YEARS to accomplish this?

God is controlling the original prophets "hands" to transcribe these original revelations, and yet He is NOT controlling the HEARTS of those who then merely ASSEMBLED those texts into what we know as the "Bible"?

Is this what you believe?

How contradictory is that?

God would not allow ONE SINGLE ERROR by controlling the HANDS of prophets, and yet He allows HUNDREDS... HUNDREDS OF YEARS of confusion and dissention and chaos, over WHICH books are really inspired or not? When God gave the original revelation to the prophet (the one whose hands God controlled) it did not take HUNDREDS of years to write down what God showed Him.

How then does it require HUNDREDS OF YEARS to decide which books to leave in, and which to take out, to assemble something called "The Bible"?

Where was God's control then?

If God was controlling that situation, IT WOULD NOT have required HUNDREDS OF YEARS to work out.

CLEARLY, this is obvious.

The Bible is NOT infallible, because MANKIND is not infallible. God works through our limitations. This is not a testimony to the FAILURE of a book being "magically without error" but it is the testimony of a LOVING, PATIENT and GENEROUS father, who stays the course with us, as he brings, not just individuals, but MANKIND AS A WHOLE, to a higher understanding of Himself, and His purpose for our lives, and for creation itself.

What you see as weakness... "The Bible is not without error"

I see as beauty... "We are not robots to be controlled. Love would not be possible if this were so. So, God is patient and LONGSUFFERING as He TEACHES... PAINSTAKINGLY TEACHES, over THOUSANDS OF YEARS, mankind, how to LOVE."

If God would decide to CONTROL our hands in order to FORCE us to write words PERFECTLY, then why not just CONTROL OUR HEARTS, to NEVER allow the possibility of sin in the first place?

The answer...

Because God desires LOVE from REAL PEOPLE and not PROGRAMMED OBEDIENCE from robots.

You just do not understand God's heart Paul.

You are trying to relate to him through OBEDIENCE, rather than through LOVE.

You actually claim it is ME who lacks faith in God, because I do not believe in, nor do I need, the concept that a book written and reproduced by men that is WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF ERROR.

YOU NEED THAT.

I DO NOT.

My faith is so strong in God, and my relationship and ability to communicate with Him SO SECURE, that I TRUST GOD HIMSELF to direct my path and my life. To coax me where I need to be. To fill my HEART, and not a book, with His truth.

If it were shown to your satisfaction, that there IS error in the handing down of texts and copies of them, that are now many thousands of years old, it would shake your faith so strongly, you may lose it.

Not me.

NOTHING can shake my faith in God.

Because my faith is IN GOD HIMSELF, and not some note He left for me on the Kitchen Counter.

I don't have to rely on something PHYSICAL (text on a page) to believe in, and love beyond measure, my Father God. Becuse HE, GOD HIMSELF, is with me EVERY DAY. What a sad concept for me, the idea, that someone feels they have to have a relationship with God through a PHYSICAL intermediary. Or that having a relationship with God through a THIRD PARTY, be it a priest, or a book, is the CLOSEST I can be TO MY OWN FATHER!

I don't think I would want a father like that.

Could you even call that being "Father"?

Where's the fatherly love there?

"Son, I am your father, but you can primarily have a relationship to me, by READING ABOUT ME in another room... so go on... get out of here, and start reading!"

Wow.

I don't understand that kind of relationship.

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ill be there rockin out with my c*ck out.

You wish. There will ne nothing but torment there.

Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

and originally hell was a cold place seeing as that its far from the light of god.

Rev.21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

hell wasnt even mentioned until the new testament anyway, so its open to interpretation as to whether it exists in the first place.

So. Many things are mentioned only in the new testament. That does not make them "open to interpretation"

i mean hell considering the sabbath was originally on saturday and moved to sunday how can any of it be accepted as truth.

No it was not moved. Saturday, the last day of the week, was the sabbath. When the new law was established Christ set Sunday, the first day of the week, as the new day to worship. Sunday is not the "new sabbath"

the vast majority of the holidays were paegan at one time.

Sure, people have worshiped false God's for most of time. Doesn't make it right.

it is fact that this planet is 4 billion yrs old. it is fact we as species have only been here but a tiny blip on the scale of geologic time

BAHAHAHAAAAAAA at you calling that a fact. What... do you have a control? Or somebody who lived back then keeping records?

(a blip that DID NOT coinside with that of the dinosaurs).

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with you; he eats grass as an ox.

16 See now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.[/quote]

A tail like cedar? Sounds like a dinosaur to me. Brontosaurus perhaps?

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

A leviathan? Sounds too big to catch. Perhaps a sea dinousar. Plesiosaur perhaps?

but whos to say that 6 days to a god isnt several billion years.

Hey a blip of fact!

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

whos to say that a god doesnt orchestrate something like evolution to creates its beings.

Who? mmmm genesis 1? Yeah that's it.

in any case ill dress appropriately.

uhh.... what?

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Yes, Paul.... THE TRUTH will set us free.

Books are not "THE TRUTH" itself.

They teach ABOUT truth.

It is the TRUTH that sets me free. Not the King James Bible, or the New International Version, or any of THESE VERSIONS:


NET The NET Bible / New English Translation (NT, 1998; First Beta Edition, 2001; Second Beta Edition, 2003; First Edition, 2005)3
TNIV Today's New International Version (NT, 2001)
NLT New Living Translation (1996)
CEV The Contemporary English Version (1995)
NIrV New International Reader's Version (1995)
Message E. H. Peterson, The Message: The New Testament in Contemporary Language (1993)
NCV New Century Version (1991)
REB Revised English Bible (1989)
NRSV New Revised Standard Version (1989)
NJB New Jerusalem Bible (1985)
NJPS Tanakh (1985), produced by the Jewish Publication Society
NKJV New King James Version (1979)
TEV Today's English Version, also known as Good News for Modern Man (1976)
NIV The New International Version (NT, 1973; OT, 1978)
LB The Living Bible (1971)
NASB New American Standard Bible (1971; update 1995)
NAB The New American Bible (1970)
NEB The New English Bible (1970)
JB Jerusalem Bible (1966)
Amplified The Amplified Bible (1965)
BBE C. K. Ogden, The Bible in Basic English (1965)
JPS The Torah (1962), The Prophets (Nevi'im) (1978), The Writings (Kethuvim) (1982), produced by the Jewish Publication Society
MLB Modern Language Bible: New Berkeley Version (1959; rev. 1969)
Phillips J. B. Phillips, The New Testament in Modern English (1958)
RSV Revised Standard Version (NT, 1946; OT, 1952)
Knox R. A. Knox, The New Testament in English (1945)
AT The Bible-An American Translation (1927)
Moffatt James Moffatt, A New Translation of the Bible (1926)
TCNT The Twentieth Century New Testament (1898-1901; rev. 1904)
ASV American Standard Version (1901)
RV Revised Version (NT 1881; OT 1885)
YLT Young's Literal Translation (1862; rev. 1898)
KJV (=AV) The King James Version, known in Britain as the Authorized Version (1611)
AV (=KJV) The Authorized Version, known in America as the King James Version (1611)
Douay Douay-Rheims Version, a translation for the Roman Catholic Church (NT 1582; OT 1609-1610)



And those are just SOME of the English versions!

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We have free will Paul. We are also limited beings.

God guided the apostles into all truth. They spoke other languages they had never heard. They spoke one language and others heard simultaneously in their own language. God is not limited.

God is controlling the original prophets "hands" to transcribe these original revelations, and yet He is NOT controlling the HEARTS of those who then merely ASSEMBLED those texts into what we know as the "Bible"?



Is this what you believe?

Yes. The writing of the bible was miraculous. Then miracles ceased.
I cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

MIRACLES CEASED.

You just do not understand God's heart Paul..

Sin Craig. You are saying you can see my heart and God's. It's not only rude to me and wrong. It's saying you are a prophet. You then are sinning.

You are trying to relate to him through OBEDIENCE, rather than through LOVE.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Because I love him I search his will and keep his commandments. Here we are again Craig. You mouth off from your ego. I use the bible to show God's will on the matter.

God loves us enough to give us his complete will for us. So we can be happy here, serve him here, bring others to him here, be with him in heaven, and bring others to him in heaven.

You actually claim it is ME who lacks faith in God, because I do not believe in, nor do I need, the concept that a book written and reproduced by men that is WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF ERROR.

I didn't say it was without error. I said it is complete and all we need to know. In the bible it says to search. When you search and study (original texts etc) you find the few errors.

I.E. Baptism was transliterated instead of translated.

Translated it would have read "repent and be immersed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins"

YOU NEED THAT.

I DO NOT.

Yes I do, yes you do, yes we all do. To "know the truth"

What do you think you can figure it out on your own?

Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Death Craig. Get a clue, trust the bible or quit claiming to be a Christian.

My faith is so strong in God, and my relationship and ability to communicate with Him SO SECURE, that I TRUST GOD HIMSELF to direct my path and my life. To coax me where I need to be. To fill my HEART, and not a book, with His truth.

That is your ego and your faith in yourself guiding you Craig. You CAN trust the inspired word of God. It is our ONLY way to know his will. He does not talk to us any other way.

If it were shown to your satisfaction, that there IS error in the handing down of texts and copies of them, that are now many thousands of years old, it would shake your faith so strongly, you may lose it.

There are errors in the text. Errors that through study we can find. It never shakes my faith. Unlike you even when I lived in sin I knew the truth. I knew it because I read it.

When I lived in sin (repeated habitual sin like smoking, and partying) I knew it was wrong and I knew I had to get out and walk in the light in order to please God.

NOTHING can shake my faith in God.

That's great Craig! Now live it. Have faith in his promises.

Because my faith is IN GOD HIMSELF, and not some note He left for me on the Kitchen Counter.

That note he lefty is the ONLY reason you know about him. And he promised it is all we need to know his will for us.

I don't have to rely on something PHYSICAL (text on a page) to believe in, and love beyond measure, my Father God. Becuse HE, GOD HIMSELF, is with me EVERY DAY. What a sad concept for me, the idea, that someone feels they have to have a relationship with God through a PHYSICAL intermediary. Or that having a relationship with God through a THIRD PARTY, be it a priest, or a book, is the CLOSEST I can be TO MY OWN FATHER!

I don't think I would want a father like that.

Could you even call that being "Father"?

Where's the fatherly love there?.

The love is his guidance there in his inspired word. Again you would NOT know him otherwise.

I Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is your mediator Craig.

"Son, I am your father, but you can primarily have a relationship to me, by READING ABOUT ME in another room... so go on... get out of here, and start reading!"

Wow.

I don't understand that kind of relationship.

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You don't understand because you don't trust him. If you think he talks to you directly you are either A. Sawggart B. Lying C. Crazy

That note he lefty is the ONLY reason you know about him.

Absolutely untrue. For you to suggest this, says more things than you could possibly realize...

1) Illiterate people cannot know God.
2) Primitive peoples in jungles cannot know God.
3) No one knew about God until there was written text. But somehow God INSPIRED others directly, in order for them to write these things down in the first place. So, this is contradictory.

Paul did not become saved through scripture. Jesus APPEARED to Him on the Road to Damascas IN PERSON. If Paul can be saved by Jesus DIRECTLY (After Jesus had died and ressurected) then ANYONE can be saved by Jesus directly.

The thief on Jesus right did not come to Jesus through scripture. He WITNESSED a man dying on a cross beside him, and yet this man was FORGIVING his murderers... WHILE they were murdering him. He had NEVER seen anything like that, nor had the soldiers who AFTER piercing him and mocking him and casting lots for Jesus' clothes, He STILL forgave them, AS HE WAS DYING... and those guards pronounced "Surely this was the Son of God!" - It was the TESTIMONY OF LOVE that changed their opinions and their hearts, and NOT written words on a page.

LOVE and not WORDS, is what changes hearts Paul.

It is a SHAME that you profess to know Christ, and profess to be His follower and DO NOT UNDERSTAND that. The words on a page, are merely a TEACHING, an EXPRESSION, a COMMUNICATION of that Love.

IT IS THE LOVE that saves and makes us a part of God's family.

NOT WORDS.

To believe text has magical properties, is to believe in witchcraft.

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We have free will Paul. We are also limited beings.

God guided the apostles into all truth. They spoke other languages they had never heard. They spoke one language and others heard simultaneously in their own language. God is not limited.

God is not limited Paul.

Human flesh is.

We cannot be CONTROLLED and maintain FREE WILL. You understand these are contradictory don't you? When believers open their hearts and God has a relationship with our minds and hearts, and shares information, or a knowledge of another language, or a prophecy of things to come... These are not GOD MAKING US ROBOTS, but it is based on our own desire to serve God. It is a MUTUAL relationship, not God controlling us, OUTSIDE OUR OWN DESIRE. In other words, I can open my mind to God's thoughts and direction, but I can STOP IT too. I can CUT MYSELF OFF FROM GOD, and SHUT HIM OUT of my life. He gives me the FREE WILL to do so, so that I NEVER lose my free will.

Is it true that Jesus... "stands at the door and knocks" and "if any man hear my voice, and open the door"... (WE MUST OPEN THE DOOR PAUL, God does not FORCE IT OPEN).... "I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

He does not just visit (sup=eat and drink) with US, but US with Him!

God is interested in us as His children Paul. It is a TWO SIDED relationship. Not some freakish being saying...

"I WILL NOT TALK TO YOU DIRECTLY, BUT ONLY THROUGH A BOOK WRITTEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. BUT SINCE YOU ARE MY CHILDREN, I WILL WATCH YOU. AND THOUGH WE WILL NOT COMMUNICATE, I WILL BE PLEASED BY YOUR OBEDIENCE. YOU WON'T FEEL MY PLEASURE, OR HEAR IT, SO I'LL JUST TELL YOU NOW... THROUGH POST-IT-NOTES... THAT WHEN YOU DO GOOD, JUST IMAGINE ME BEING PLEASED, CAUSE I WILL BE... EVEN THOUGH I WON'T TELL YOU MYSELF! BUT YOU CAN READ ABOUT IT"

"But why daddy?"

"Why can't we talk to you ourselves and hear you too?"

"WELL SON... I'M KIND OF LIKE THE WIZARD OF OZ... PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN... AND ALSO A LITTLE LIKE HOWARD HUGHES... ISOLATED FROM THOSE I LOVE, BUT I WILL SEND NOTES OUT OCCASSIONALY... BUT I DON'T SAVE MY URINE IN BOTTLES... HOWARD WENT A LITTLE OVERBOARD ON THAT ONE! OK SON? I LOVE YOU! - OOPS - DAMN IT - I JUST SPOKE TO YOU DIDN'T I? CRAP! GO BACK TO READING BOY... I WON'T BE TALKING TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THAT I LOVE ANYMORE!!!"

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You guys don't really believe that man existed at the same time as dinosaurs do you? What evidence do you have for this? And please don't try to twist and intepret what is written in the Bible. Behemoths and dragons do not mean dinosaurs. Herbivore dinosaurs did not eat grass, they ate leaves and other plants. Grass did not evolve until after the dinosaurs went extinct.

Actually Jimmy, I believe God created an aged earth the same way he created an aged man. He did not create male and female infants and I truly believe he created an adult or aged earth. This is only my theory. I do believe the bible when it dates the earth at a few thousand years old.