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#265469 by Displaced Pianist
Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:11 pm
Interesting thread--and polarizing, obviously.

I would point out the diff. between a musician playing gigs (or at least attempting to) and normal employment; perhaps this will clarify the "work" element. For most employment, you need to submit an application, resume or CV, go through a screening process, interview, perhaps some testing... W/ gigs, maybe a tape or CD demo, perhaps some word-of-mouth, or maybe you know the venue manager/owner and get in that way. W/ normal employment, you typically need to agree--in writing--to certain terms specified by the employer, whereas w/ gigs, it's typically the performer who requires a written agreement--if at all. W/ normal employment, the employer typically supplies the necessities for completing work (tools, machinery, sundry supplies, etc.), whereas w/ gigs, the performer is usually required to bring his/her own. Employers often specify a level of training and education required to be considered for a position; there is typically no such requirement for musicians. I'm sure we can all come up w/ more examples, and there are all sorts of gradations between.

My point here is that perhaps it's a bit disingenuous to consider music in the same context as employment/work. Sure, there are musicians who do it as their sole means of income, and some who are able to do so quite successfully. But that isn't the norm. For every one who can make a decent living as a musician, there are at least 1000 others who do it on the side, as a hobby or second income. That is far more typical.

Let's give the venue owners/managers some credit, as well. True, there are some disreputable sorts who will try to rip off musicians whenever they can, but far more are typical business types who are looking to boost their bottom line. Like anyone else, they are looking to make the most while spending the least, and as above, there are all sorts of gradations. Every venue recognizes that folks like live music, and having it will increase the margins for food & drink. Hiring a lesser act will typically mean less of a return but a lower cost up front, while hiring a popular, known act will mean paying more up front--maybe charging a cover, which may give patrons cause for pause, depending on the amount--but will usually result in a better return. It's simple economics based on human nature. At least in this context, there is a corollary to normal employment; hiring a skilled, experienced person w/ a track record will typical cost more, but will also likely result in increased production and hence, bottom line. Still, much like most musicians themselves, music is usually secondary to a venue's primary revenue stream.

I've experienced a number of diff. situations. Back in the day, when I was in college/grad school, I played 4-5 nights a week to cover rent, utilities and food, and while it was significant, it was secondary to my primary function as a student. In other words, I knew I would be stepping into a career once I graduated, and that career wasn't music. You ask most musicians how they would feel about playing 4-5 nights a week and being able to cover all their living expenses from it, and they'd say that's a pretty good deal. (Altho as we get older, our needs change.)

These days, I'm more about the music; like some posters in this thread, if I never played another gig, it wouldn't have any affect on my standard of living. Still, like anyone else, I like to be paid; after all, the venue is boosting it's bottom line, and I feel I deserve something for my efforts. In that context, I would play a gig doing music I really love for less money than I would a gig doing music I'm not all that crazy 'bout--if I even agreed to do such a gig at all. But I also consider I'm older and have the heaviest rig to haul and set up/tear down, and as we all recognize, there are always costs involved w/ showing up and playing. If I'm asked to do a piano bar gig where's there's a baby grand at the venue, I'll take even less--esp. if they throw in a decent meal on top of it. After all, I only need to show up w/ my music, and won't need to either buy dinner or go home and cook afterwards. Regardless, I need to make something, but how much is dependent on the circumstances. The only way I'll do a free gig is if it's for a good charitable cause that I endorse. That doesn't happen very often. Everyone else needs to make it worth my while. Most of the musicians I know--and there are quite a few--see it much the same way.
#265471 by Planetguy
Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:04 pm
Displaced Pianist wrote:

Let's give the venue owners/managers some credit, as well.


the ones who pay a fair wage to musicians...i give HUGE credit to. Esp so to restaurants and wineries who are often giving up table space to make room for a band. They also open themselves up to the headaches of dealing w booking bands (every tom, dick, and harry calling every day sniffing around for a gig, and coming by expecting to chat at their busiest times of the day, etc).

Face it, live music just isn't the draw that it used to be. Yeah, there are still people who will choose to go to a venue that has live music, but i'd say that for most people these days....live music, it ain't really all that. So, really a restaurant/winery owner who decides they want to go thru the hassle AND dig into their pockets to pay for live music because they see it's value, and want to make that avail to their patrons...that gets a LOT of credit in my book.


True, there are some disreputable sorts who will try to rip off musicians whenever they can, but far more are typical business types who are looking to boost their bottom line. Like anyone else, they are looking to make the most while spending the least, and as above, there are all sorts of gradations. Every venue recognizes that folks like live music, and having it will increase the margins for food & drink. Hiring a lesser act will typically mean less of a return but a lower cost up front, while hiring a popular, known act will mean paying more up front--maybe charging a cover, which may give patrons cause for pause, depending on the amount--but will usually result in a better return.


i dunno. I've had more than one conversation w someone booking bands who's flat out said...."I don't care if the band is all that good...as long as they bring in their friends and family". There's one place around here that has every Thurs locked up by the same guy who really isn't all that good. But....he brings in a ton of his friends and family. like you said DP... it IS about economics.


Regardless, I need to make something, but how much is dependent on the circumstances. The only way I'll do a free gig is if it's for a good charitable cause that I endorse. That doesn't happen very often. Everyone else needs to make it worth my while. Most of the musicians I know--and there are quite a few--see it much the same way.


Me. I'll play for free ...if da money be right! :D
#265493 by Displaced Pianist
Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:35 pm
Planetguy wrote:i dunno. I've had more than one conversation w someone booking bands who's flat out said...."I don't care if the band is all that good...as long as they bring in their friends and family". There's one place around here that has every Thurs locked up by the same guy who really isn't all that good. But....he brings in a ton of his friends and family. like you said DP... it IS about economics.

Yep, like I noted, there are all sorts of gradations. And you'll note in my comments, I never said anything about how good an act might be (subjective as that is). Like I mentioned in another thread, the general public doesn't have all that discerning an ear; popularity isn't necessarily tied to talent or skill. Venues know this--it's all about puttin' meat in the seat. No venue is gonna pay for live acts--no matter how good they might be--and take a loss. I've seen really good bands split up for lack of decent gigs, and crap bands get over on a regular basis. Put a cute gal out front and you can really get over--despite the fact she can't carry a tune as far as the bathroom. In my own experience, there have been times when I wanted to go see a band that oozed talent and was doing some really innovative music, but my friends wanted to go see some trash-metal band because they always drew in gals who could be described as...easy. Remember disco? 'Nuff said. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

True, there are some good bands out there who are giggin' on a regular basis--it restores my belief in the natural order of things. Based on what I've heard, PJazz fits in this category. Still, the music is secondary to a venue's primary revenue stream, most often food and drink. We're all loss leaders, no more than a means to get folks in to spend money on the primary revenue stream. If folks ain't buyin', you won't be giggin'. It's something for any musician to consider before complaining about not making enough money.
#265496 by Planetguy
Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:36 pm
Displaced Pianist wrote:it's all about puttin' meat in the seat.


there it is! the name of my next band.....MEAT IN THE SEAT! :D

True, there are some good bands out there who are giggin' on a regular basis--it restores my belief in the natural order of things. Based on what I've heard, PJazz fits in this category.


Thanks, DP. The check is in the mail. ( i would advise against trying to cash it, though)


Still, the music is secondary to a venue's primary revenue stream, most often food and drink. We're all loss leaders, no more than a means to get folks in to spend money on the primary revenue stream. If folks ain't buyin', you won't be giggin'.


i've been lucky enough to work for some great people who are/were music lovers and really appreciate(d) what I (solo) or one my bands had to offer. Though supportive both vocally and monetarily... i never confused them as being "patrons of the arts" and anything besides someone trying to run a profitable biz. still, it's great when you find folks like that.
#265501 by Displaced Pianist
Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:00 pm
If'n you use Meat In The Seat, I'mma move to BFE Mizzou and lay down the piano in that band. Otherwise I'll expect payment for fair use--HA!

Here's an example of what I was talking about. When I lived in Columbus, there was a guy who had a band that bore his name--L.A. Jenkins. But L.A. was atypical; he wrote most all of the tunes and his guitar work was prominent in all of 'em, but the band was actually fronted by Elise Nicolas, this tiny gal who could really belt out a tune and played some guitar herself. I loved seeing them--it was unusual, innovative music that had elements of funk, jazz, rock, etc. (One of his tunes was called "This Isn't Jazz.") I still have a cassette of one of his releases, and all the tunes were a good listen; alas, I played it to death.

My point is that while they were obviously very good musicians and had a great sound--and other musicians liked and respected what they were doing--they never got their due from the general public. Their gigs were never all that well attended, even though they always sounded great. As a result, they never got that many gigs. L.A. was way ahead of his time, even for the folks in Columbus--a market that embraces a number of distaff musical styles. It ain't always easy being a good band w/ a great sound.
#265505 by GuitarMikeB
Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:43 pm
DP I won't argue with your comparison of employee vs musician, except that a musician is most like an independent contractor - they guy a business hires to fix the roof, or do clean up at 6am. The IC most likely brings his own equipment, and may be more- or less-qualified for the job, hence a varying pay scale.
#265509 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:06 pm
Displaced Pianist wrote: It ain't always easy being a good band w/ a great sound.



It's all about the framing.

If you can present your band/act as a professional that delivers the goods, then the venue will see the value in having you back and treat you accordingly. Once people know all the songs you're going to play, the mystery is gone. Art can not be predictable or it becomes advertising.


Local bands that draw locally are either:

1. Still in school and all their friends come out
2. A brand new band so all friends and family come out....at least for a little while
3. An older, more talented band that doesn't play out more than once or maybe twice in a month.
3. Have a reputation as good entertainment over many years and a house gig
4. really good-looking and have a following of groupies
5. Bands that travel often, so you want to catch the home-town heroes when they have a homecoming
#265512 by Planetguy
Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:18 pm
RuiMusik wrote: But unless you're in a union (like classical musicians) being a musician is not like having a regular job. I thought that's why everyone wanted to be one? :D :D


me, i'm in it for the free booze!
#265515 by Planetguy
Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:37 pm
Displaced Pianist wrote:If'n you use Meat In The Seat, I'mma move to BFE Mizzou and lay down the piano in that band. Otherwise I'll expect payment for fair use--HA!



well, what about UNfair use????

no audition necessary, DP....yo gots da gig!
#265546 by Displaced Pianist
Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:21 pm
I'd agree that a musician is more akin to a contractor (I hesitate to use the word "independent") than a traditional employee--esp. as we're becoming more of a contractor economy--but when you think about it, the basic elements are still much the same. While there are all sorts of gradations, contractors still need to go through the same vetting process (application, screening, interview, testing, etc.), and the terms of a contract are specified by the employer. The employer still specifies the requisite training/education/experience needed, and basically controls most (if not all) aspects of the agreement. While there is some benefit to the contractor, the lion's share of benefit is to the employer; for example, they don't need to pay benefits, taxes, etc., the typical labor laws don't apply and they can terminate the relationship anytime they like. It's worthwhile to pay a bit more because the upside to the employer is so significant; if it wasn't, no employer would enter into contractor relationships. If the contractor doesn't like the terms, he/she is free to go elsewhere, but that isn't a viable option for any but those who are able to maintain a steady stream of contracts--much like a musician who has enough of a following to put meat in the seats. Even for those who can, they sometimes need to 'bite the bullet' in order to maintain relationships.

Another point to consider is that contractor relationships are typically based on specific needs; needing someone to fix a roof or clean a facility @ 6am is quite a different matter from hiring a musician(s) to perform. Businesses hire contractors to fulfill specific needs they've identified; venues hire musicians as a potential means to boost their bottom line. In other words, if you don't fix that roof or clean that facility--or whatever it might be (I use these only because Mike mentioned them)--your business will almost certainly suffer. That's not the case w/ music; while some venues are known for having live music, it still isn't their primary revenue stream. In the absence of live music, they are left to find other ways to boost their bottom line, but the business still functions. Typically, music is a 'nice to have' proposition--unless there isn't a tangible gain to the venue. Also consider that in most cases, folks do contract work as their primary means of support; that is seldom the case w/ musicians.

But you're right about one thing: it's not exactly like having a "regular job." That, and the slightly higher compensation, is what draws so many into contractor relationships. In most cases, there really isn't a choice--if an employer only does contractor gigs, you are forced to either roll w/ it or not work. In that respect, it is somewhat analogous to what musicians face; if you don't like what a venue is offering, you can decline to play. But a venue is looking at gross receipts; if they pay an act $300 to perform on a Friday night and see the receipts are no better than they are w/o live music--or if the gain doesn't justify the expense--guess how that venue will increase it's margin? In that scenario, it's tough--foolish, really--to complain you should be paid more, on a par w/ other employees or contractors, esp. when it isn't your primary means of support. We all like to be paid for what we do, but these are things musicians should consider before complaining about their compensation.
#265618 by robbie552170
Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:01 pm
Disrespectful is a good way to put it,not all musicians are interested in free drinks,those aren't real
musicians. When someone puts on a stunning performance,the crowds will come. Short sighted venue
owners are looking for the sure thing. There are performers that deserve a chance to show what they can
do.As musicians.we need to push harder to convince the people we have music that's worth listening to.
If your music is polished,don't try to book dives.

Inaction is not an option, the only way to change things is to keep up the fight!
#265619 by robbie552170
Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:21 pm
Charities are done with a different motive in mind,When you see a big celebrity do a charity,
people respond by buying their cds or going to their concerts.The We Are The World Project
helped Lionel Ritchie triple his recording sales. Some performers that did the Jerry Lewis
telethon were paid,personally I wouldn't ask to be paid for a charity.

One way or another Pros get paid well.Anyone that balks about paying you fairly when you
show them your worth it isn't worth dealing with.

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