General Music Chat

Let us not be mistaken in the assumption that the rules not are set by the one who does the hiring. The musicians responsibility is to fulfill the requirements of the one who hires him to do a job SPECIFICALLY DEFINED by the one who hires and writes the paycheck, is it not?

So what on earth does comparing a waitress or bartender have to do with the hiring of a band?

Let me play along with your premise.

Suppose you hire a barmaid that only wishes to serve people that she wishes to serve? Maybe she only wants to serve single men because she got the job for that reason. Then what.

What if you hire a bartender who wants to mix drinks the way he wants to and not the way the customer desires to drink? Then what?

Get the general drift of the principle of what I am trying to convey?

The Golden rule. He who owns the Gold makes the rule.

Maybe the problem with me, as a musical artist, is that I play whatever the fu*k I want, and don't give a sh*t whether people drink or not. I'm not there to increase booze sales. I'm there to perform MY brand of music. If I have to cater to some idiot's idea of profit then I'm not interested. Boo hoo.

Let us not be mistaken in the assumption that the rules not are set by the one who does the hiring. The musicians responsibility is to fulfill the requirements of the one who hires him to do a job SPECIFICALLY DEFINED by the one who hires and writes the paycheck, is it not?

Yes, Absolutely

So what on earth does comparing a waitress or bartender have to do with the hiring of a band?

Its not about comparing the roles...Its ALL about 'paying' them. (Without a contrived list of retarded requirements) If they produce for you or advance your monetary cause through their services...they need to get paid. Its that simple , really.

Let me play along with your premise.
Suppose you hire a barmaid that only wishes to serve people that she wishes to serve? Maybe she only wants to serve single men because she got the job for that reason. Then what.

- Her role as a barmaid, necessarily requires (appropriately so) that she make every effort to sell as many drinks on her shift as possible, without reservation. To that end she must do what the boss tells her to do.

-My role as a Musician is to entertain the patrons (I'll do any playlist the boss tells me to do) . It is not appropriate to ask a musician to render services they aren't in business to render. You wouldn't use a shovel to loosen or tighten a hex nut, would you? If, as a musician I am told I have to sell drinks in addition to my normal duties, then you need to pay me for the following services rendered:
A: Entertaining the patrons (By occupying a designated space, and performing an acceptable set as per your playlist requirements.)
B: Additional Payment for every drink I have to sell to a patron.

Many Bar owners would simply just love to not step up to the plate... They absolutely would love to avoid paying anything for the help they hire. Well, to them, I say that they can go fk themselves...

What if you hire a bartender who wants to mix drinks the way he wants to and not the way the customer desires to drink? Then what?

I'd say that such a bartender is in the wrong line of business, and no doubt I'd fire his dumb ass... But rest assured, if he did what he was told, I'd pay him for that.

The Golden rule. He who owns the Gold makes the rule

No Argument there. To those sheisters who cheat musicians...they better hide their gold....

A bar owner can not "cheat you" if he tells you whet he wants at the offset and you agree to it. If you aren't good enough to cheerfully accept conditions of acquiring the gig, don't accept it. Sit home and admire yourself in the mirror or something that will satisfy your ego.

Bottom line is who gives a rats ass about a band? They can either accept the set or agreed upon conditions or refuse them according to their principles. Once the deal is made it is up tho the consenting parties to follow through. I f they can win over the audience, and if they fatten the bottom line, they win over the bar owner.

I am a musician. I don't take jobs if I do not like the music the boss man wants me to play, or the club itself, or the types of patronage that frequent the club. I do not rant about how pissed off they make me because I can't play the music I want to play. I just don't take the job, it's a free country for him as well as it is for me. I don't piss and moan that the guy who hires me wants to hear a particular type of music. He knows his clients far better than some guns for hire.

If a musician is so touchy feely about his playing perhaps he should sell jukeboxes or start a karoke service instead. You will get nowhere wrapped up in your own ego. People just don't care for the package.

In fact, many bar owners went to karoke because they got tired of dealing with primadonna musicians. I have seen a lot of live music clubs go that way simply because they didn't want to screw around with musicians and their attitudes anymore. And it didn't hurt their business one bit.

In the end, it isn't about a musicians feelings, or whatever. He is a hireling until he invests in the bar and becomes a partner.

You can say what you want, you can ramble on until the cows come home, but it changes nothing. If an employer doesn't like your attitude, you don't get the job. If he doesn't like your music you don't get the job. If you can't play what he wants you to play in HIS establishment, you don't get the job. If you get pissy about it in his presence, you won't be there again.

Owners hire and owners fire at their digression. If you suck or if you don't cut the mustard and make the draw that he needs to get when you play you aren't worth what you think you are worth. Now that hurts don't it? A musician is just another employee hired to do a job. Unfortunately, usually a person with an overinflated sense of self worth hired to do a job. At least it is beginning to sound that way to me.

I would never pis$ away the kind of money a band needs for a small club. It would be stupid to do that. Some people need to go and take a business education course or take control of some ego issues along the way.

It is a small wonder that so many musicians don't make it with their over inflated sense of worth. A band is only worth what they can get paid., speaking on a commercial level, and they are only worth how much income they can generate above expenses. That's what life dictates. I can sit here and think I'm so good, I can have friends that admire my playing, but if my playing is not a viable product that can't deliver it is worth only self gratification. It is more of a hobby not a profession. You are only worth the value that someone else places upon your service. That is, if you are trying to sell your product.

You don't bring skis to a roller rink. You adapt the the venue. You bring roller skates. No one at the roller rink gives a damn how much you like skis. OK I give up. As the wise philosopher Alfred E Neumann once said. What? Me worry?

Maybe the problem with me, as a musical artist, is that I play whatever the fu*k I want, and don't give a sh*t whether people drink or not. I'm not there to increase booze sales. I'm there to perform MY brand of music. If I have to cater to some idiot's idea of profit then I'm not interested. Boo hoo.

You and I are a lot alike in this regard Bob.

Lot of folk making music for different reasons. But I have my doubts if ever some teenage kid worked his ass off, bought his first guitar thinking.
Oh hell yes, now I can sell more liquer for the bar owners.
Said no one . . . ever.

I don't have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. I have an over-inflated sense of not selling out and butt-kissing just to play something I don't care for.

I don't have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. I have an over-inflated sense of not selling out and butt-kissing just to play something I don't care for.

Bob, did your band get "called back" to those gigs you were telling us all about having in the Kansas City metro area? it was a while back...

Good post JW. If you want to be s successful band who plays successful bars for more than chump change, this is a playbook of how to get it done. If you can't ring the register, you ain't no good as entertainment.

We actually play very few bars but the ones we did, this was the playbook. One very successful place we played for 10 years and the paycheck was double most other bars but we had to work for it. Take or leave it. You can always do your own thing with pay-to-play.

Lot of folk making music for different reasons. But I have my doubts if ever some teenage kid worked his ass off, bought his first guitar thinking.
Oh hell yes, now I can sell more liquer for the bar owners.
Said no one . . . ever.

I'm sure that when they got their first guitar they never said great! Now I can go get paid for playing.

But you have to have a job to play for pay. How many kids getting their first guitar thought about that either, right ?

Lot of folk making music for different reasons. But I have my doubts if ever some teenage kid worked his ass off, bought his first guitar thinking.
Oh hell yes, now I can sell more liquer for the bar owners.
Said no one . . . ever.

I'm sure that when they got their first guitar they never said great! Now I can go get paid for playing.

But you have to have a job to play for pay. How many kids getting their first guitar thought about that either, right ?

I suppose. But then dreams of being a "rock star" may well be the prime mover for budding musicians. Who knows for sure.
I didn't, nor do I now, entertain any thoughts of music being a career.
But then I'm no musician.
I just play guitar for a Christian mission band.
That's "my bag" and I'm happy with it.

Perhaps I'm "selling" too . . . just not by the drink.

I don't have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. I have an over-inflated sense of not selling out and butt-kissing just to play something I don't care for.

+1 vote..

Who really needs that bar?

Don't you have other places to play where they aren't Big fat stinking richards?

I'm goin' to Kansas City, Kansas City here I come
I'm goin' ta Kansas City Knsas City here I come
they gotta crazy way of lovin' there and I'm gonna get me some..

Slacker, like I said. I do not dispute your points. If I am understanding correctly, your point revolves around the notion of 'do what the boss man wants, or hit the road' Fundamentally, I agree with that, and i dont begrudge a bar owner who has such dictates up front. I agree that if I cant deliver what he wants, I should just STFU and move on....

But here is MY point ... You did/do electronics for a living. I'm sure you have an hourly rate + cost. Thus you are fully qualified. So lets say you love to play Carl Perkins songs. And lets say the bar owner agrees to allow that playlist. But lets also say he insists that you rewire the juice to get to the sound system in the bar.... Finally, lets say that he'll let you have 50 % of the door as payment for the night.

Is that is acceptable? Please tell me that you can see the 50 different ways that the bar owner is being a jack ass...
Can you not see how accepting such terms would only perpetuate the problem for other musicians in the future...(at that bar)

In any case, that is the PROBLEM that I am Talking about. And BTW... I wouldn't take that job, unless he: A) let me take 100% of the door, + B) Paid me the electricians rate for the wiring job.

Obviously, in lieu of a wiring Job , the bar owner would rather have you sell his premium drinks for him...If he insists on this up front, if i were to accept the offer, I would agree to percent of the house tips (proportionate to sales percent i contributed) on top of the full door.

Good post JW. If you want to be s successful band who plays successful bars for more than chump change, this is a playbook of how to get it done. If you can't ring the register, you ain't no good as entertainment.

We actually play very few bars but the ones we did, this was the playbook. One very successful place we played for 10 years and the paycheck was double most other bars but we had to work for it. Take or leave it. You can always do your own thing with pay-to-play.

Ackkk! Assuming were talking about a playlist that the bar owner requires, and which can be delivered by the band... Where does a bar get off scamming musicians labor on drink sales?? If you meet the entertainment requirements, (playlist) there is a cost associated to that, (that has absolutely NOTHING to do with alcohol sales ...and the bar owners needs to pay it or get up there and sing himself...) Why is this so difficult for musicians to understand.. No Wonder musicians are always broke! lol!

I should think about getting into promotion... There are clubs where i live, who need a spanking....

I share these things so people get a perspective of what the other side wants.

You guys that say f**k em, obviously arent working very much and never will with that attitude. Im not pointing my finger at anyone in particular cause I was that guy for a long long time. I play what I want and thats it, well I didnt get to play out much.

If you are original as has been stated you probably arent going to make any real money, you are probably going to have to do one of those shows with 3-4 other bands, the reason is thats the only way to get enough people in the place, to buy enough booze to keep the place going.

I dont understand why people cant see that this is all business, and a partnership between a band and the club owners.

I guess Im fortunate, cause I play in a cover band that basically plays what we want to play, and we get away with it most of the time, but there are times, we have had to revert to playing the golden oldies to keep an audience. My thoughts on that are just learn around 10-15 of those types of songs to have in your bag of tricks just in case you need them.

The bottom line in club land is if you can bring in consistently 100+ people to your gigs that will spend money, then you can play anything you want, if you arent getting that kind of draw then you need to reevaluate what you are doing and adjust it, or you are destined to be a frustrated musician sitting at home, wondering why you cant get a gig. Or playing off nights for tips.

If you go into public and expect money, then at that point it is a business. Its not about you anymore, its about your band, its about the venue owner or promoter and its about entertaining and retaining any audience.