General Music Chat

that i believe it's ok for kids to have PE in school? or that it's ok for them to learn about healthy diets and energy effeciciency?

The topic is whether kids are being enlisted to monitor other people's behaviors, not learning personal health habits. I think this is what Drummer's point was ~ you're rebuttal / analogy has nothing to do with the point being discussed.

I read the article, and it doesn't seem to me that there is anything wrong with giving kids a badge and ID then asking them to report things like carelessness, in and of itself - if anything, it gives kids a sense of self-worth and usefulness.

However if the "others" these kids are reporting to turns out to be any authority figure that can penalize the "bad-habits" (however a bad habit is defined), then the analogy of socialist tactics for spying on your parents / neighbor's activity is an accurate (albeit extreme) depiction of the underlying problem.

A child is given a duty to "rat out" someone elses' behavior.

That is an entirely different function - kids are in school to learn academics, not to serve as enlisted help for duties they likely don't understand.

We like to dismiss arguments based on "slippery slope" fallacies. Naturally, slippery slopes are not a good way to justify arguments - however they do serve a useful tool in observing the effect of an underlying principle.

An example (this thread) , it should be easy to see that if spying on harmless behavior is okay, then spying on harmful behavior is also okay, because spying in general has been approved. One need only redefine the parameters of what constitutes good or bad behavior. That is why understanding the underlying principle is necessary - to avoid a harmless scenario from transforming into a harmful one.

regards

thank you Mr. B.F. Skinner..

thank you Mr. B.F. Skinner..

Glad to have enlightened you Mr. R.J. Mauer

that i believe it's ok for kids to have PE in school? or that it's ok for them to learn about healthy diets and energy effeciciency?

The topic is whether kids are being enlisted to monitor other people's behaviors, not learning personal health habits. I think this is what Drummer's point was ~ you're rebuttal / analogy has nothing to do with the point being discussed.

actually for anyone to MONITOR anything...they first must learn about what it is they are monitoring. as obviously must be the case in this instance. you don't suppose the principal just handed out summons books for the monitors to start handing out tickets do you?

I read the article, and it doesn't seem to me that there is anything wrong with giving kids a badge and ID then asking them to report things like carelessness, in and of itself - if anything, it gives kids a sense of self-worth and usefulness.

look we're dealing w human behavior here. albeit young humans. some will abuse the "authority" and take the opportunity to be snitches and others will use the opportunity to point out behaviors to the offending kids (like littering or wasting resources).

i'm sure no one had in mind that these "monitors" would be replacing adult supervision, or that any actions would be taken against "perps". that's just more of the same Chicken Little making a mountain out of a molehill BS as i see it.

However if the "others" these kids are reporting to turns out to be any authority figure that can penalize the "bad-habits" (however a bad habit is defined), then the analogy of socialist tactics for spying on your parents / neighbor's activity is an accurate (albeit extreme) depiction of the underlying problem.

as i said above....i seriously doubt there will be repercussions, sentences meted out, or any consequences at all when and if responsible teachers, aides, and principals are given a list of inappropriate behaviors as pertaining to the subject at hand.

i seriously doubt any responsible person in authority handed such a list would even call out any of the perps by name. i know i would not if i were still teaching. the point is recognizing the behaviors and pointing them out. not embarrassing or disciplining the offenders.

A child is given a duty to "rat out" someone elses' behavior.

see above

That is an entirely different function - kids are in school to learn academics, not to serve as enlisted help for duties they likely don't understand.

again...you might look at it and decide that is in fact the goal. teachers and aides shirking THEIR duties and enlisting kids as monitors to point out bad behavior ( but keep in mind the bad behavior they're supposed to be on the lookout for is not fighting, cursing, tripping another kid in the hall...the bad behavior they are being charged to observe is supposed to pertain to wasting of resources and energy, and conservation issues, right?)

An example (this thread) , it should be easy to see that if spying on harmless behavior is okay, then spying on harmful behavior is also okay, because spying in general has been approved.

oh, "spying" is it? i thought they charged w observing other's behavior. so are they gonna be in a duck blind? or hiding under a cover of leaves when they're doing this "spying"? will they have little microfilm cameras to record events?

One need only redefine the parameters of what constitutes good or bad behavior. That is why understanding the underlying principle is necessary - to avoid a harmless scenario from transforming into a harmful one.

i don't totally disagree w that...i just don't make the same leap and w a jerking of my knee jump to the conclusion that asking kids to be observant of other kids behavior ON ISSUES OF WASTEFUL RESOURCES AND CONSERVATION is a malevolent and god awful thing that will inevitably lead to the crushing end of civilization as we know it.

on the contrary..i think done properly..and i have NO reason to ASSUME it won't be done properly...this could be a wonderful and fun learning opportunity for all involved

Intent doesn't really concern me. What concerns me is how the mechanism that is put into use for good intent, can morph into its opposite because the intent changes over time. That is the crux of why laws are based on principal and not single instances of of good intent.

Again, I don't really have a problem with kids being involved in letting their teachers know that something is amiss - this or that is broken, or "hey someone left a light on and that's a waste of energy" it's just that the article presents this as an official duty of kids ~ you get an ID badge and a clipboard, and instructions to report x to an unknown.

I don't have enough information based on that article to believe it's wrong, but it seems at face value given the language to serve a function other than why the kids are there in the first place - learn.

It is also a little reminiscent of how governments in other countries / eras try to put in place programs to unify children in a cause - children want to be accepted and given a sense of pride in a common cause. But is it the place of the government to supply this for children? Causes change over time, so the underlying principle that governments can supply common cause for children in order to achieve "x" can start off with "x" being inert, but morph into something non-inert.

Given your history (sorry to hear about your relatives ~ my grand father grew up in Hungary and managed to immigrate to the U.S. just prior to the iron curtain). You can watch a short snippet of his experience here where he gives a little background on a book he wrote (the book is not about politics).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKyvqTn4hzg

In my discussions with him, he did give a lot of insights on the workings of a totalitarian government system and government involvement in education. Good intentions are how programs get approved, but long-term implications change the outcome.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/h ... nnings.htm

and implications
http://suite101.com/article/hitlers-you ... vi-a332297

It's a good discussion, but in the end I'm sure we'll disagree, and I don't want to "argue" or open the door to pokes and jabs by trolls. I just don't enjoy that kind of thing. That said, I'll leave it at that.

Cheers!

It's a good discussion, but in the end I'm sure we'll disagree, and I don't want to "argue" or open the door to pokes and jabs by trolls. I just don't enjoy that kind of thing. That said, I'll leave it at that.

Cheers!

time constraints don't allow me to answer more fully right now but i echo and applaud your views on straightforward adult converstaion w/o the pokes and jabs.

i look forward to looking at that youtube w your grandfather. as it happens my paternal grandparent are from Hungary too!