General Music Chat

Geeze, you guys pulling up some deep truths, kudos.

I will have to start saving my money and buy up all that cheap church real estate. Great for recording bands.

The lack of understanding of Christianity is pretty telling.

" Sky Daddy " has already condemned me.
( The wages of sin is death )

My salvation is a free gift from Christ.
( That no man may boast )

It cannot be earned. So my actions are irrelevant.

Only my faith is relevant.

It is through my faith that I seek to be moral.

Not to be granted forgiveness.

I cannot keep the LAW no matter how I may try.

Christ paid for my sins ... pure love.


It really is, that simple

Religion isn't the only place morality comes from. It comes from tried & tested ways of living that either work in a society or don't.

Nihilism or amorality aren't the only alternatives to living a religious-based life. Nor is the christian way the only truly moral way to live. There are millions & millione of ppl on this planet who live by buddhist or hindi, or, yes, even islamic rules of behavior, many of whom seem way more moral than many christians I see.

And then there are those who are simply good folk, who seem to be good for no real reason whatsoever, who aren't the slightest bit overtly religious.

Come on, ppl. Do you really think that only your god could come up with the 10 commandments? Do you think that perhaps some aboriginal culture couldn't have come up with the same rules to live by? They DID, you know, & many of them lived by those rules far better than the Europeans ever did...or the Jewish folk, as a ppl...or us Americans...& some of them did it even without the promise of everlasting hell if they dared to break the rules or denied their gods.

I admit I find myself fascinated with the prospect of aboriginal tribes "coming up with" the first 4 commandments, especially the first!

However, what of anything you said above isn't a form of circular reasoning, ending in your arbitrary declaration that utility = truth?

Specifically, you say "...[morality] comes from tried & tested ways of living that either work in a society or don't.

What guage are you using to determine what "works"? On that understanding, every civilization that exists, including the ones that sacrifice children, boil their enemies in oil, feed their own citizens to lions for sport, are by definition "moral".

I figure, if you have this morality thing pegged as not requiring religion, then you should be able to explain what gauge you're using to determine what "works" in society.

Everything dies eventually, every plant and animal, even stars and galaxies. None of those things inherit sin; death is simply the final stage of life. What you do while alive is what counts; preparing for an afterlife that probably doesn't exist is a waste of time and energy. But don't let me stop you.

The only time religion oppresses anybody is when the thought of eternal doom dictates their freedom to live and make mistakes. And the self-righteous are always eager to help you with that.

All morality comes from the Most High God of creation. It is written that Gods laws are written on a mans heart. That means both those who worship God, and those who don't believe in God have the morality of God in their hearts. And that is where you believe your diversity of morality comes into the picture. However, I might add, your theory of emerging morality appears to have taken a turn for the worse a long time ago. Universally.

Now what men choose to do with morality is another story. If you do not believe in a God, that isn't offensive to those that do. And it wouldn't be right for them to insult you, for God created you for his purpose, just as we were chosen for ours, and that is morality. I know that God has enough people who are trying to please him.

Everything dies eventually, every plant and animal, even stars and galaxies. None of those things inherit sin; death is simply the final stage of life. What you do while alive is what counts; preparing for an afterlife that probably doesn't exist is a waste of time and energy. But don't let me stop you.

Wait a second - you accuse Christians of believing silly bible stories because you know there is no God, then you go and make a guarded statement that afterlife is "probably" not true? Which is it? Are you an agnostic (no belief in God) or a traditional atheist (belief there is no God). If you're an agnostic, you should stop making bold statements about the universe and the nature of life. If an atheist, stop hedging your bets with statements like that - you owe it to yourself to be consistent with your beliefs whatever they may be


Furthermore, you have no basis for saying even "probably" that everything dies eventually. All you know is what you experience - but the galaxy has been here a whole lot longer than "science" and anyone who believes that a discharge of energy can create a solar system shouldn't have a problem believing that the energy responsible for it is eternal - unless you want to say something comes from nothing... in which case you start sounding religious

I am indeed an agnostic, but your definition is wrong. An agnostic allows for the possibility of God, but believes there's not enough evidence to decide either way. Atheists believe there is no God. Big difference. In my way of thinking atheists are no different than the religious - both presume to know the truth. Anytime someone says that they have the answers that are unanswerable I know they are trying to sell me something.

Why would some spend so much energy fighting against something in which they don't believe ??

Be like me getting pissed and becoming aggressive every time someone mentions the tooth fairy.

Simple, God, our creator, is in every mans soul. satan, the deceiver works against God and creates a tension or inner turmoil.

What is the origin of the anger and the hate in all men, satan.

satan's greatest deception was to convince men that he does not exist.

Religion isn't the only place morality comes from. It comes from tried & tested ways of living that either work in a society or don't.

Nihilism or amorality aren't the only alternatives to living a religious-based life. Nor is the christian way the only truly moral way to live. There are millions & millione of ppl on this planet who live by buddhist or hindi, or, yes, even islamic rules of behavior, many of whom seem way more moral than many christians I see.

And then there are those who are simply good folk, who seem to be good for no real reason whatsoever, who aren't the slightest bit overtly religious.

Come on, ppl. Do you really think that only your god could come up with the 10 commandments? Do you think that perhaps some aboriginal culture couldn't have come up with the same rules to live by? They DID, you know, & many of them lived by those rules far better than the Europeans ever did...or the Jewish folk, as a ppl...or us Americans...& some of them did it even without the promise of everlasting hell if they dared to break the rules or denied their gods.

I admit I find myself fascinated with the prospect of aboriginal tribes "coming up with" the first 4 commandments, especially the first!

However, what of anything you said above isn't a form of circular reasoning, ending in your arbitrary declaration that utility = truth?

Specifically, you say "...[morality] comes from tried & tested ways of living that either work in a society or don't.

What guage are you using to determine what "works"? On that understanding, every civilization that exists, including the ones that sacrifice children, boil their enemies in oil, feed their own citizens to lions for sport, are by definition "moral".

I figure, if you have this morality thing pegged as not requiring religion, then you should be able to explain what gauge you're using to determine what "works" in society.

Quite true. I misspoke. I should have said "those 6 of the Ten Commandments that apply to everyday life," or "general social rules."

Obviously, the aboriginals aren't as concerned with who or what each other believes, which cuts down on internal strife considerably.

The main "meat" of the 10, though, are generally accepted codes of conduct throughout most, if not all, cultures - not lying to hurt another person, no killing, no theft, no coveting of another guy's wife, no adultery, honoring one's parents...let's face it - these are things that, when you break the rules, never work in a polite society of any sort, & they cause strife in any community. Common sense stuff, Jams.

The flowery bits about images of gods & worshiping only one & using names in vain & such are typical of the more strict religions, but not necessary to have a working society, nor are they necessary to be a person of moral character.

The bit about sacrificing children & boiling enemies in oil is kinda funny, when you look at the judeo/christian/moslem model, too. It was more a secular society that stopped these things from happening, than religious views (if, indeed, it can even be argued that they've stopped - we still use napalm & such, & blithely accept the concept of "collateral damage"), as far as I can tell. It was also secular thinking that stopped slavery, which seems to be supported in the Bible, in places.

What works in any society is behavior that doesn't create internal strife.

Closed spousal units don't cause jealous rages & killings, when they are approached in the proper manner. This is common sense.

Adultery causes problems. It's common sense to try to deter it.

Lying against someone else for your own benefit causes problems, & obviously isn't a fair way to act. This is common sense.

Honoring one's parents is a huge one, in any society. Never bring shame upon your family. The Eastern religions are even stricter about this than your Christian one.

Killing is reserved for war, in most societies, except for the ancient judeo/christian'islamic model, which allwed for stoning of those who didn't seem to be following the rules. The muslim model still has these attributes in some areas of the world, but I daresay, when I listen to fine upstanding Christians like Pat Robertson & Ann Coulter & their ilk, there are throwbacks in that area, here, as well. It isn't the norm.

Stealing causes trouble. It's patently clear that a society needs to keep it from happening, & to punish it when it does. This is common sense.

These rules didn't need to come from any god. They came from seeing what happens when the behaviors are allowed to happen that destroy a community.

The 1st 4 are not even completely Christian views. The followers of Kali, the Thuggee, only worshiped one god. They were a violent ppl who could freely attack anyone not of their faith. I daresay that the same thing happened with the judeo/christian/islamic model. One need only look at history - the Crusades, Charlemaigne, et al.

So, in my estimation, the final 6 of the 10 are common sense things that every society tries to abide by, & the 1st 4 have caused more strife & death & pain in the world than its peoples ever needed or deserved.

Well for those that don't believe in an afterlife, I had a very real ghost or entity in my house when I lived in Switzerland. You could feel this thing and hear it walking through the house, I watched cabinet doors open and my things fall out. He got a lot nicer after I invited some shamen over and we did a ritual cleansing ceremony, and then I told him if he didn't stop making so much noise we were going to kick him out. He was pretty calm after that.

Chaeya

I think religion has become a straw man for those who are afraid of the idea of spirituality having a structure. I personally abhor entities like the Wahabi, the Catholic church and evangellical super churches. Not because I am against religion but because I am against a man telling me what God's intentions are. When Jesus formed the desciples, it was a group discussing the blessing that God bestowed upon man. The Beattitudes are not the hash rules dropped in the book of Leviticus. The viel ripped and the old laws went away with history with the one admonishion that "If you love me, keep my father's commandments".

Jesus and the bible in general was a revolutionary tool that brought the idea of communion with God not through pomp and idols, but through a genuine understanding of God's will and love in our every day life. The parables taught how daily life, not just certain days, can be lived in the light of God. The Holy Spirit is there not to judge and condemn, but to come to us as a comforter healing our souls through strife and teaching us compassion if we will listen.

So all the complaints I see about religion are not aimed at God, but instead unrighteous men acting in the name of God. We have free will. Not freedom from consequences. I may judge a person by thier actions on this world but only God can judge the soul and motivations.

So the Laws of the old testament are not relavent after the Crucifixion other than the Ten Commandments. Much of the actual verbage has been misinterpreted. I studied with a Minister who spoke 17 languages including 7 dead languages. When he taught me the lessons of the bible, I learned that many words had different meanings. He died when i was a teen ager so I lost that resource. But what i learned has sent me away from the bricks and idols of what we see as Church. I do not forsake the gathering together in the name of God. No matter where I am, if I am discussing God and creation, the spirit world and spirituality, I am in Church. We are always with the spirit of the lord when the lord is in our hearts.

That said, I am often in contention with many of my own beleifs. I have anger, rage, lust and all the wonderful challenges we are born with. So I see it as a challenge. I was not created perfect so I do not think I am expected to be so. I am forgiven even when i am an asshole. The important part is to not abuse it. I am not intentionally a bad person. That is the point at which free will can and does get us in trouble.

Well struck.

Yeah, some interesting points made overall. In a nutshell, all I can say is:Leave it to people to give anything sacred a bad name.

I mean, if you don't find any meaning from a personal perspective, then you won't stick around too long. Religion has quite a track record. For me, I always find more truth in solitude than I do from surrounding influences. That's not to say I don't learn anything from people, it's just that when there's no noise then you can really hear what's going on.

I am indeed an agnostic, but your definition is wrong. An agnostic allows for the possibility of God, but believes there's not enough evidence to decide either way. Atheists believe there is no God. Big difference. In my way of thinking atheists are no different than the religious - both presume to know the truth. Anytime someone says that they have the answers that are unanswerable I know they are trying to sell me something.

Agnostic = does not believe in god
Atheist = believes there is no god

Which is what I said. The two statements are not synonymous.