General Music Chat

Ok, where to start.

I don't disagree with your point of view. I feel much the same way however, humor me for a moment.

Let's say I am a genius composer, but don't play a single instrument. Would that make me any less gifted? The answer should be no. I still wrote it, I can find people to play it. Taking your analogy at face value then Bach was not really that good because he should have played all the instruments in the compositions. Even if he could play all the parts how could he physically do it? Now if he had recording software, he could have.

I don't play violin, drums, piano (well anyway) etc. but using technology I can now incorporate them into my music which I would never have been able to do before. I can input an entire string section, or choir if I wish. I am still writing the music, I am still inputting my soul into it, I had to conceive it, I am just not playing it. Once it is written I can then decide whether to find real instrumentalists to play it (which I would) or I can step on a pedal and trigger it via midi. Again I have the flexibility to do what I want.

Nothing takes the place of a musician and their instrument. This is why I do alot of work on the acoustic and classical guitar. It's a no frills, straight to the point, what you see is what you get. But to say some one who writes a great piece totally using technology that the music conceived in that medium is not valid is doing them a great injustice imo.

I guess though if they don't play a single instrument at this point they can't be declared a musician, but a composer. However I know very few composers who can't play a single musical instrument but I am sure they are out there.

Hey Wegman.... about your comments on technology helping you play instruments lol.........

check this out

http://www.bidzcenter.com/cgi-bin/forum ... ng=English

Now this is just another thing artists are going to have to put up with... lol.

Yes and these comments pretty much some it up (taken from that link)

"It’s hard to make it as a band," says Shish. "There’s just millions and millions of bands. You’ve got to be really good to make it. With this game, not many people play it. Or at least, not many people play it as much as I do."

Shish is right-being in a band can suck. Learning guitar, or any instrument, can suck. Trying to get gigs, get paid and keep a band together are all difficult tasks that crush as many rock ‘n’ roll dreams as they inspire. Just listen to any sophomore record by a marginally successful touring band. Guitar Hero, on the other hand, offers the kind of instant gratification that makes video games so addicting, Kraft Dinner so delicious, and learning a real instrument an increasingly archaic idea.

This isn't even settling for mediocrity, it's for not trying at all.

Sad

When you consider the fact that some of those guys .... (mentioned in the link) .... are more popular as a (lets use software and fake it) musician than many talented musicians who don't fake it ... its just utterly ridiculous.

And yes .... I will be the first to disagree with my title of them ... as they are NOT musicians.... but .... I wonder just how long it will take before they will swear to God himself that they are exactly that.... musicians.

But the sad truth is in the making .... with just a music making video game ... even the non talented, non musician can rack up over 300 fans at a Toronto Music Convention. With today's software ... you no longer have to know how to play a single note ... just know how to play video games .... and you can take center stage with screaming fans at your feet.

Now how do you like that for competition in this crazy music business? How long before these video games has people GIGing at bars/clubs? Hey.... they made it to the Toronto Convention Center didn't they?

Hey Wegman,

Based on your samples you are what I would consider above average on the guitar.

Have you tryed to play guitar hero?

I was at Wal Mart the other night with my daughter and she smoked me on this game.

Some things in life are very humbleing.

Sorry to get off subject.

JW

Why do you care HOW they make music?

If you like it, you like it, right?

Sour much MAGE?

If you have creativity, why leave it in your head where no one else can hear it?

Hey Wegman,

Based on your samples you are what I would consider above average on the guitar.

Have you tryed to play guitar hero?

I was at Wal Mart the other night with my daughter and she smoked me on this game.

Some things in life are very humbleing.

Sorry to get off subject.

JW

Thanks man. I try and I apply myself whatever happnes from there happens.

My nephew has guitar hero. He had me try it and I sucked.

Back to being paid.

In college I would play for a sandwich and a couple of beers a night. I thought this was good at the time. I learned how to play with other people and I got something in return.

Late 80s our band paid each member around $50 a night. Anything less we wouldnt play.

Mid to late 90s we had a four piece band that ran its own sound and lights. In the club arena we got $600 a night. We would do some one off type weddings, party type gigs for $1000.

Recently I was asked to play in a 5 piece classic rock band. I asked how much to expect a night. The guy said we make $50 a man. So the pay in my area is the same after 25 years.

I dont know if I can relate to web streaming or not. I have occasionally paid for movies at home so I guess it is the same thing. I guess the biggest hurdle is making people aware of the event and then getting them to hit the pay button. I still think there is nothing like going to a sweaty night club and seeing a good band work a crowd live, theres no way this can come across with web streaming.

I think for the average club band the best way to increase your pay is by selling merchandise at the gigs. CDs, tee shirts, beer huggys come to mind. A couple of years ago some friends of mine in a band sold condoms with their logo on them. They told me they couldnt keep them in stock they sold so many. Go figure.

It really all comes down to just getting out there and working, I see streaming as a bonus but not a way to make money. Besides isnt this offered free most of the time, everytime there is some huge rock consciousness type show they are available free.

It really all comes down to just getting out there and working, I see streaming as a bonus but not a way to make money. Besides isnt this offered free most of the time, everytime there is some huge rock consciousness type show they are available free.

Contacting people via emails is FREE too ... lol... unless your at bandmix .... and .... when you realize that people will actually pay $10 per month to send emails... as people "are" paying this fee.... i'm thinking .... I can get $10 for a 6 hour live concert.

When you consider the fact that some of those guys .... (mentioned in the link) .... are more popular as a (lets use software and fake it) musician than many talented musicians who don't fake it ... its just utterly ridiculous.

And yes .... I will be the first to disagree with my title of them ... as they are NOT musicians.... but .... I wonder just how long it will take before they will swear to God himself that they are exactly that.... musicians.

But the sad truth is in the making .... with just a music making video game ... even the non talented, non musician can rack up over 300 fans at a Toronto Music Convention. With today's software ... you no longer have to know how to play a single note ... just know how to play video games .... and you can take center stage with screaming fans at your feet.

Now how do you like that for competition in this crazy music business? How long before these video games has people GIGing at bars/clubs? Hey.... they made it to the Toronto Convention Center didn't they?

Exactly Mage,

and to get this thread back on topic this is the problem that confronts the "real" musician. It's twisted, but it is reality.

Perhaps we have entered an era where the musician no longer holds the coveted position they once did as Irminsul stated. It may because instead of it being a respected position, it is now one that is looked upon with contempt, or jelousy so to speak.

I don't know but the older I get the more I find that the integrity, honor, and discipline are becoming extinct.

Instant gratification and the easy way out seem to be the order of the day.

In all honesty .... I see music becoming a FREE expressed art ... rather than a paid skill/talent. We can see some evidence of that even today with just that video game link.

The internet is already screwed for making money off of when it comes to selling CDs... thanks to music pirates making sure you get it all for free ... and to such sites as bebo.com, myspace, youtube, etc. that encourage the free uploads of music to share to millions of fans .... again... for free.

Even the Live GIG Streaming via internet to fans won't last long. The more popular that idea becomes the more website owners will get themselves setup with the idea ... and presto ..... thousands of sites offering it for free. (and ... it was already pointed out by JW... its offered free already by some bands now)

So where is this paycheque that this thread is talking about? Personally ... I can't see much of a paycheque lasting for much longer.

I have to answer a couple of you, so let me do it without gobbing up the page with quotations -


Wegman you wrote suggesting that a composer need not know how to play an instrument in order to compose. I am not entirely convinced that is true. While many of "the greats" certainly didn't know how to play all the instruments they wrote for, they had one or two basic instruments they played well. I'm sure there are dabblers in composition who have never known an instrument, but lets just say I am not aware of a single composer, of note and repute, who is in that category.

That being said, I certainly use technology to write for instruments I do not play. For instance, I have been writing string quartets now for a year (I'm currently finishing up a Quintet for Strings and Piano) and I do not know how to play a violin, viola or cello. BUT, I am familiar with those instruments as to their range, how they are tuned and some of their fingering conventions. Without that knowledge, anything I write for them would likely be useless to any players wanting to perform the piece because my music would not be "playable". So the composer for acoustic instruments needs some knowledge of those instruments if they intend on their pieces being played at some point.

Regarding your lamentations of our current age seemingly lacking in integrity, honor, and discipline; wow, I couldn't agree more. You also, accurately, note that we live in a time of instant gratification. I'll add to that, an age of gratification requiring higher and higher doses of speed and intensity. But, like a cocaine or heroin addict, we are "chasing the dragon" on that front - meaning that at some point our limited sensual abilities will hit a glass ceiling and we will be simply numbed by more-more-more-louder-louder-faster-faster. We will begin to shut down, decompress and want that "simple and honest" thing again. That is already happening to a degree in some young people, who I have (happily) been noticing showing up at more folk/acoustic or classical concerts as of late. I attended a performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture this summer at Sundance, and I was amazed to see all the faces there clearly under 20 years of age.

Maybe we are getting our soul back, little bits at a time.

*******

jw123 you are not the only one here to have noted that rank and file club players are getting the same fees now they were 25 years ago. Talk about stagnate economies! But to bring it into a broader perspective, its largely because music as a true performance art is badly battered and bleeding. In the 70s, people would come out of the woodwork to go to the nearest RoadHouse and see even a mediocre rock band, because hey - it was an event! "People pulling out instruments and playing live music. Wow! Cool, lets go and have some fun." Today, after being bombarded with ever intensifying media, live music of any kind is no longer a real "event" anymore and the pay scale shows it.

I also completely agree that streaming on the net is no money solution. At best, it is a decent promotion tool. I have found that my material on the web promotes for what I do at live shows, and that translates to CD sales and more shows. But in and of itself, it hasn't put five bucks in my pocket.

Perhaps we have entered an era where the musician no longer holds the coveted position they once did

Everything evolves. I think we're mixing apples and oranges here. There will always be a place for real musicians and real bands playing real music. The human component is not replaced by keyboards that play stunningly realistic lead guitar parts. I can play lead guitar on my keyboard better than many, if not most guitarists I have played with. The fans wouldn't buy that for a second in a live setting.

Our band has talked about a dueling "guitars" on one song against my keyboard, but only as a novelty thing, a humorous thing. Nothing takes the place of a guy in his best rock stance wailing on an electric guitar. Or real musicians playing real instruments. Just as vinyl is almost making a comeback through collectors, purists are more and more, demanding that real musicians play their instruments. Many bands these days advertise the fact, that they ALL play their instruments, no keyboard or loop cheats.

If "real" musicians are becoming more of a thing of the past, it only enhances the value of those that actually do play, being able to command more money at some point. But I think that is not the case. The popular music dominating the airwaves right now, ala Britney, Christina and rap groups, simply replace musicians with dancers and lead singers. They are still performers and entertainers, but trust me on this, the cookie cutter crap they put out begins to sound the same after a while. The public will get bored, and other genres and forms will come full circle as it always does, to take their place and reinvigorate the music scene.

Just as punk had it's hey day decades ago, and came full circle to reappear in the last 5-7 years, so too will classic rock and other forms return, requiring real musicians playing real instruments, attracting real fans, paying real money to see them live.

Craig,

Agreed, however the problem is there are fewer and fewer (we'll use guitar players but could be any instrument) who posses the talent to hold the interest of the patrons. I think Irminsul said it best, when the pool table or big screen are more interesting then the band, well the rest kinda speaks for it's self.

There it is, in a nutshell:
.
. . . posses the talent to hold the interest of the patrons . . .
.
(even if it means - gasp - practicing)