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#14278 by muzickmage
Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:25 pm
If I may also point out .... in addition to my last post comments about bands being provided with stage, fans... and has pretty much their ticket sales more so managed..... this is often forgotten in the paycheque quibbles.

The bar owner could very well say.... ok fine .... you don't want just $300 pay.... not a problem. I will give you $1000 instead...... but .... I will have to charge you for the stage rental.... the seatings for your fans at $50 per table.... etc... etc..

When you look at the bar/club scene that is so easily put down in the sense of pay earnings ... you can wonder if the quibbles about pay is actually being considered for properly.

#14282 by JJW III
Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:57 pm
Irminsul wrote:Let me give you an example. You want to redecorate your home. You track down an interior decorator's work you like, and you hire him. You don't ask them to do it for free because, well, that would be stupid. They are professionals and work for a living. Now are you weighing their services from a profit motive? Planning on charging the neighbors to come in and oggle at your new curtains and moulding work? No. You are hiring someone for a service they provide professionally.


But, if you can flip a switch (like a stereo) and get your house decorated for free, would you do it? What if you can flip that switch and get your house decorated amazingly for free or pay some one who may do a sub par job? What if the decorator loves their job so much they just might do it for free? Your going to ask, right?

Irminsul wrote:But there Is a problem when they ask a pro to play for free, and they would not ask a pro in any other service to do the same. Hence this thread.


Again it is at the Pros discretion to tell them to take hike. If the musician is that in demand they should already have several other gigs lined and can take the best of them. It comes down to how in demand are the "Pros" talents. Let's put this in perspective. People will line up for days and think nothing of paying several hundred dollars for a Plays Station 3. Yet a musician, a "Pro" gets asked to play for free. I agree mate, it's sick, but it is what it is.

#14284 by muzickmage
Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:12 pm
Here is an idea for you all.....

Setup your basements as a GIGing bar type area.... grab a camcorder... some software... a website .... and GIG live over the internet to tens of thousands of fans each friday night at $3.95 per fan ticket.

When I think of the technology we have at our disposal ..... I can't help wondering why you all are leaving your house in the first place long enough to worry about what a venue is paying and what it isn't.

Simply stated .... grab your camcorder ... turn on your computer ... and start playing.

I am researching this very idea as we speak..... and WOW people ... you would fall off your chairs to realize just how very very simple this idea is to actually setup. I wouldn't say problem solved for you... but damn.... your still giging live .... and .... to one hell of a fan count and revenue opportunity.

#14286 by chitownfan
Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:37 pm
I heard this on another site . make your own show, In a field on someones property or rent the hall,get the venders and get the bands split the profits with other bands.

#14287 by chitownfan
Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:47 pm
Thats a great idea but you still have to leave your house the rest of the week because there is nothing better than a live audience. Great Idea though . I would do it for 1 time a week . Also sell your cds there and sell your cds at the clubs . make stickers ,everyone loves stickers and they are cheap. Stickers with that website on it.

#14288 by JJW III
Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:07 pm
chitownfan wrote:I heard this on another site . make your own show, In a field on someones property or rent the hall,get the venders and get the bands split the profits with other bands.


I said this earlier. Have the band/performer rent a hall and handle everything themselves and see if they make money or not. They now have complete control of the environment.

Now, I would be willing to bet very few would actually break even, let alone make money.

I know I can't. So how can "I" expect anyone else to pay "me" well.

Again getting to Irminsuls point of corporate gigs etc. I maintain that the same applies. There simply is not enough demand "for most performers" to commensurate being paid well, if at all.

#14290 by Greeniemagic
Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:11 pm
It's not a new idea mage..Bands have been doing that for a while. UK artist Sandi Thom became famous for webcasting gigs from her basement flat in Tooting.

#14291 by muzickmage
Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:16 pm
exactly greenie .... I heard about a few others doing this kind of marketing/giging thing with the live gig streaming .... which is why I decided to check the idea out. Not a "new" idea correct... but new to me as i'm just beginning to try to figure out exactly how it all works.

I would also agree that I wouldn't depend on live streaming to be the ultimate answer ... as Chito said ... do it maybe once per week ... for the opportunity.... while not giving up on other offline opportunities that could very well pan out great as well.

#14308 by JJW III
Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:02 pm
Darth,

I believe you are really on to something. With all this technology, I would expect music to be alot better then it is. I am not a genius suffice to say and the majority of music I hear is mind numbing, predictable and un-inspired. It's a re-hash of what the other popular stuff is. When is the last time some one jumped on the scene and tore it up like a Van Halen, etc? I haven't heard a guitar solo that made me take notice on radio type new music in forever.

IMO music at this point in time is in a very sad state and the financial compensation reflects this sediment loud and clear.

#14332 by Irminsul
Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:57 pm
Wegman wrote:But, if you can flip a switch (like a stereo) and get your house decorated for free, would you do it? What if you can flip that switch and get your house decorated amazingly for free or pay some one who may do a sub par job? What if the decorator loves their job so much they just might do it for free? Your going to ask, right?


First of all, the sheer chances you have of getting a professional interior decorator to do your home for free is next to nill. Why? Because they are pros and must be PAID. Also, the public is not conditioned to ask professional interior decorators to agree to such an absurd thing ("please decorate my home for free!"). This thread deals with the propensity in most places for pro musicians to be routinely expected to play for free.

Your example is far from valid.

Wegman wrote:Again it is at the Pros discretion to tell them to take hike. If the musician is that in demand they should already have several other gigs lined and can take the best of them. It comes down to how in demand are the "Pros" talents. Let's put this in perspective. People will line up for days and think nothing of paying several hundred dollars for a Plays Station 3. Yet a musician, a "Pro" gets asked to play for free. I agree mate, it's sick, but it is what it is.


And again, that may be the way it is...but it doesn't make it right. Hence this thread. You can change your world, one person at a time, by changing minds. I think it's a worthwhile thing to try and right something that is wrong.

Wegman wrote:Darth,

I believe you are really on to something. With all this technology, I would expect music to be alot better then it is. I am not a genius suffice to say and the majority of music I hear is mind numbing, predictable and un-inspired. It's a re-hash of what the other popular stuff is. When is the last time some one jumped on the scene and tore it up like a Van Halen, etc? I haven't heard a guitar solo that made me take notice on radio type new music in forever.

IMO music at this point in time is in a very sad state and the financial compensation reflects this sediment loud and clear.


Technology is a wonderful thing, but it does not follow to expect it, in and of itself, to improve the artistic content of any artist. That stuff comes from the soul, and there is an argument today that one nasty side effect of all this technology is that it is also dulling our humanity and ability to empathize. Read Robert Goleman's book "Social Intelligence" where he discusses his research showing that people closing themselves off to the society around them in their "iPod cocoons" are starting to have deliterious effects on our social awareness, for example. It's a really good read....

#14337 by JJW III
Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:32 am
Irminsul wrote:
Wegman wrote:But, if you can flip a switch (like a stereo) and get your house decorated for free, would you do it? What if you can flip that switch and get your house decorated amazingly for free or pay some one who may do a sub par job? What if the decorator loves their job so much they just might do it for free? Your going to ask, right?


First of all, the sheer chances you have of getting a professional interior decorator to do your home for free is next to nill. Why? Because they are pros and must be PAID. Also, the public is not conditioned to ask professional interior decorators to agree to such an absurd thing ("please decorate my home for free!"). This thread deals with the propensity in most places for pro musicians to be routinely expected to play for free.

Your example is far from valid.

Wegman wrote:Again it is at the Pros discretion to tell them to take hike. If the musician is that in demand they should already have several other gigs lined and can take the best of them. It comes down to how in demand are the "Pros" talents. Let's put this in perspective. People will line up for days and think nothing of paying several hundred dollars for a Plays Station 3. Yet a musician, a "Pro" gets asked to play for free. I agree mate, it's sick, but it is what it is.


And again, that may be the way it is...but it doesn't make it right. Hence this thread. You can change your world, one person at a time, by changing minds. I think it's a worthwhile thing to try and right something that is wrong.

Wegman wrote:Darth,

I believe you are really on to something. With all this technology, I would expect music to be alot better then it is. I am not a genius suffice to say and the majority of music I hear is mind numbing, predictable and un-inspired. It's a re-hash of what the other popular stuff is. When is the last time some one jumped on the scene and tore it up like a Van Halen, etc? I haven't heard a guitar solo that made me take notice on radio type new music in forever.

IMO music at this point in time is in a very sad state and the financial compensation reflects this sediment loud and clear.


Technology is a wonderful thing, but it does not follow to expect it, in and of itself, to improve the artistic content of any artist. That stuff comes from the soul, and there is an argument today that one nasty side effect of all this technology is that it is also dulling our humanity and ability to empathize. Read Robert Goleman's book "Social Intelligence" where he discusses his research showing that people closing themselves off to the society around them in their "iPod cocoons" are starting to have deliterious effects on our social awareness, for example. It's a really good read....


I had penned several responses and I am going to hang my hat on this one. What needs to happen for musicians to get paid is that everyone playing is going to have join the union and set the price at X amount. There has to be some kind of bench mark set that puts a price on the worth of a musician. Perhaps this is why the union was started in the first place and thus where the problem has manifest from. That is the only way I see of reaching any kind of solution to this dilemma. As long as there are those who will work for less then X or free, the problem perpetuates.

As far as technology, it is a tool. Thus the craftsman (musician) has far more tools (technology) then they ever had before yet they create less IMO. Let's ponder for a moment what Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. could do with todays technology. Also to head off a retort, I am aware that there are those who are making great strides, I am not speaking of them because imo they are the extreme minority. AGain I use the amount of "musicians" out here who have 0 content up when it can be done for $10 and a half hour of time.

As far as the IPOD coccoon, I couldn't agree more and I will check out the book. Thanks

#14341 by Irminsul
Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:46 am
Good replies, Weg. I do want to explore this comment a bit, though...

Wegman wrote:As far as technology, it is a tool. Thus the craftsman (musician) has far more tools (technology) then they ever had before yet they create less IMO. Let's ponder for a moment what Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. could do with todays technology.


The mind reels when imagining what those gifted musical souls would have done with todays tools. But when I saw your comment I immediately wondered what would happen if we inverted that idea - and sat today's pop artists in a room with a piano, some symphonic instruments, some music score paper and pen (the technology of the Bach/Beethoven/Chopin eras). I'm not usually cynical, but I highly doubt any of them could produce a 9th symphony or Sonata Pathetique.

#14343 by JJW III
Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:47 am
Irminsul,

Actually what you speak of is my point, in reverse. Mate, one thing I have come to terms with is that you and I will approach an issue from completely different directions. This is not a bad thing, just a challenging thing for me when trying to explain it with you in mind. :)

Your comments are exactly the point I was making but in reverse. Technology should enable those of less gifted nature to produce far more then they could using the tools of the day of the composers. For instance. No ones tunes should ever be out of time because we have metronomes and drum machines. We have software that will score your tune for you. We have recording software. We have effects processors, and loops, and computer programs and on.

I am not saying it enables everyone to now write a symphony on par with the composers I noted, which were not chosen at random by the way, but it does make it easier. You don't need to know how to play piano, you can punch it up on your computer via midi. I having a scoring software that will play the notes on whatever instrument I choose as I score it. I can then play it back and if it doesn't sound right or I have a note out of place I will hear it and then correct it.

What I am saying is that this technology should produce far more interesting and dynamic music. I mean I think of a ground breaking album and I have to go back to like Dark Side of the Moon. Think of what they did on that album by cutting and splicing. I read an article about the tune Money and what was involved to do it. It's mind bending.

I don't know, maybe I expect to much.

#14346 by Irminsul
Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:20 am
Wegman wrote:Irminsul,

Actually what you speak of is my point, in reverse. Mate, one thing I have come to terms with is that you and I will approach an issue from completely different directions. This is not a bad thing, just a challenging thing for me when trying to explain it with you in mind. :)

Your comments are exactly the point I was making but in reverse. Technology should enable those of less gifted nature to produce far more then they could using the tools of the day of the composers. For instance. No ones tunes should ever be out of time because we have metronomes and drum machines. We have software that will score your tune for you. We have recording software. We have effects processors, and loops, and computer programs and on.

I am not saying it enables everyone to now write a symphony on par with the composers I noted, which were not chosen at random by the way, but it does make it easier. You don't need to know how to play piano, you can punch it up on your computer via midi. I having a scoring software that will play the notes on whatever instrument I choose as I score it. I can then play it back and if it doesn't sound right or I have a note out of place I will hear it and then correct it.

What I am saying is that this technology should produce far more interesting and dynamic music. I mean I think of a ground breaking album and I have to go back to like Dark Side of the Moon. Think of what they did on that album by cutting and splicing. I read an article about the tune Money and what was involved to do it. It's mind bending.

I don't know, maybe I expect to much.


Technology is an enabling tool. That's all. But if your music has no musicality, no inspiration, no soul, it doesn't matter what technology you have. It won't make MUSIC.

Yes you can have a piano patch, a flute patch, a guitar patch in your software arsenal. But lets be real here...note on note off with some dynamics will NEVER take the place of a human playing those instruments. I got into this with another user here who said he had a good piano patch, and because he had that, his computer is a musical instrument. I just about spat my coffee all over the monitor. see, a piano...like your guitar, wegman...is finely crafted, subtle physical instrument which responds in thousands of levels of dynamic to the person playing it. The music you produce from your hands is direct. It is the pure thing. Now you can use a computer to do all sorts of effects and what not...and of course you can use it for electronic instrumentation....but to reiterate, it will never replace the physical playing of a fine instrument, and it will never create music. That quality is up to the mind of the composer.

Technology is not a modern day invention. It is a concept that has always been with us. In Bach's day, it consisted of a large array of wind driven pipes called an organ, and various ensembles of stringed and winded instruments developed in the centuries before his life. He never tried to reinvent the organ. He wrote music, and used the instruments of his time (his technology) to produce that music for living people. For posterity, he used the technology of the pen and paper to preserve it for posterity. None of this instruments, or volumes of paper would have amounted to a hill of poop without his music behind them.

And the same concept stands today. Without music in it, the technology falls flat.

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