General Music Chat

Good point...but there are folk artists who are professionals as well. This can get pretty convoluted.

Gopher had a some good points about understanding the basics of "the game" and working it from that angle. The ratio thing - hmmm, interesting, but I couldn't figure out my own ratio for two reasons: one, I love this stuff so much that I'd do it even if I didn't make a red cent from it, and two, it happens to be the majority of my income right now due to a lot of outside factors. So, I'm not sure how to figure that ratio out. But then again I'm a lousy mathematician, that's why I hand the hard stuff off to my wife.

When I was coming to the end of getting my art degree at the U of U, one of the required classes was called "Portfolio" and it was of course dedicated to helping you get your portfolio together for your job search. That was all well and good, but years later I wish the program (as well as the music school) required some courses that dealt with the business end of those professions. You know, give the outgoing students some training in the arts of accounting and managing their own careers. As far as I know they are STILL not offering courses like this as part of the curriculae and I think that's really cheating their students.

Cranking people through art and music schools and then booting their asses out the door with a "good luck now get out of our faces" attitude is contributing to the all to often heard phrase "great artist - lousy businessman".

You said it yourself: you'd do it even if you don't make a cent. This is what club owners depend on. There's such an abundance of good bands that many people will play for free just to play. In LA pay-to-play was and is a very real situation. At the same time hard core band "groupies" are rarer than hen's teeth because of the drinking laws and aging fanbase. Where bands used to be able to draw a hundred or more paying customers they're lucky to draw thirty. So trying to find alternative places to play (other than bars) is the trick. As I've previouly mentioned my friend David's band plays lots of festivals, corporate events, private parties and casino lounges, which all pay quite well. They avoid bars because they pay much less. You also have to be able to compete in bars; usually you're playing with several bands (I'm talking about the original scene; cover band bars are a little different). If you don't have cutting edge or interesting music you will not be playing there again.

<snip>...So trying to find alternative places to play (other than bars) is the trick..<snip>

It just can't be said enough. The bar/nightclub scene is dead as far as a good career mover.

We just played a gig saturday night at 10:00
We were the last band to go on out of 6 bands a little cold most of the crowd left for the night . There were some campers left . It was the 1st time this thing went on the guy running it took a loss of about 2500 but still payed us.
He still payed us what we asked for. A flat fee . Im sorry for his loss but a class act . He could have said he dont need us but we played like there was 10,000 people in respect for them . We even played a hour longer with no breaks. At the end he paid us and said we rock and will have us again. He told me his loss but he said it wasnt about the money and yea it would be great to make some but he pulled this thing off. A class act . A bar wants you to pull in a % of people and you get the door or share the door with other bands. Ive played for nothing alot to get exposure but these bars are making huge profits because of us musicians so where do we as musicians take a stand and say no more % just flat fees. How is a band from out of town suppose to bring a crowd unless they are big.

irminsul said
Cranking people through art and music schools and then booting their asses out the door with a "good luck now get out of our faces" attitude is contributing to the all to often heard phrase "great artist - lousy businessman".

comments
I couldn't agree more with this statement. Trying to achieve success as a musician without at least some basic knowledge of "business"... ie; accounting, economics, marketing.... , places the musician at a major disadvantage (IMO). You would think the Universities and Colleges would be the first to catch on to this little concept.

chitownfan said
A bar wants you to pull in a % of people and you get the door or share the door with other bands. Ive played for nothing alot to get exposure but these bars are making huge profits because of us musicians so where do we as musicians take a stand and say no more % just flat fees. How is a band from out of town suppose to bring a crowd unless they are big.

comments
Just out of curiosity..... what are opinions on what a "flat fee" should be for sayyyyy a 3 hour performance. I'm asking because .... I thought of a flat fee system before as being perhaps a fair idea across the table..... but... keep in mind... I don't GIG .... I manage .... so i'm not in the position to understand the need for such price standards in respect to how a musician him/herself would. I'm hoping to hear opinions on this.

Well I guess that would go by how big the place is and how esteblished they are . I can see smaller bars trying to get on the map like us giving them a break but the ones that have a packed house no matter whos playing should pay the flat fees.

Yeah a flat fee or minimum would be things you could negotiate if you use a contract, however as mentioned most bars/lounges (where 80% of us competing) can choose not to use bands that demand a contract. I would suggest that most musicians would be happy to receive $75-100 per man, so for a four piece band this translates to $300-400. Cut that in half for bands doing one set with two or three other bands. The reality is you're usually paid based on draw, so $0-30 is more likely. Cover bands that play three or four sets can expect to make more. You continually must ask yourself why you're doing music: the money (or chicks, etc) or the art.

Yea I agree
The bigger the band the more the fee.
But minumum 75 per person
I also play music for free because I love it but We dont have to either. I havent quit my day job but I sure would like too. This is a business just like the bar owners too.

Ok, let's look at it from this perspective.

Take any band/performer as our test bed.

Forget the nightclubs, forget the corporate scene, forget any outside influences to jam you up. Now, how many can rent lets say, a 500 seat venue for the night and make money?

If you can then there you go. You will have no trouble making money at this.

If YOU can't, why should the club owner, corporation etc. be expected to subsidize you?

Ok, let's look at it from this perspective.

Take any band/performer as our test bed.

Forget the nightclubs, forget the corporate scene, forget any outside influences to jam you up. Now, how many can rent lets say, a 500 seat venue for the night and make money?

If you can then there you go. You will have no trouble making money at this.

If YOU can't, why should the club owner, corporation etc. be expected to subsidize you?

There are a number of flaws in your scenario.

First, there was a bit of an inconsistency when you said to "forget" all those venues and then bring those same same venues up at the end of your example as places who shouldn't be hiring you. That was a bit confusing.

Second, from this perspective, no musician should be paid unless they can pack a 500 seat hall and exit with a profit. That is just outrageous considering that clubs make money if a band so much as hauls in 30 people. Wedding/funeral/corporate event musicians often are needed for events under 50 people.

Thirdly, the logic of your position would suggest that I shouldn't so much as hire a plumber who doesn't have a national reputation. If I have pipe problems and need a local plumber, fast, why shouldn't I hire one?

General point - You seem to be holding professional musicians to an unrealistically high standard of employment compared to other professionals. This is not an uncommon view, and one that promted me to start this thread. I'm not sure why that view is so widely held, but it may have something to do with the "glamor" of the enterprise. Sounds like another good thread, to me...

General point - You seem to be holding professional musicians to an unrealistically high standard of employment compared to other professionals.

Absolutely.

And, unfortunately, for musicians, this is a realistic, though unfair standard IMO.

Take it or leave it.

Ok then ..... lets try out this example for the hell of it.....

If your one that believes that a department should be able to pay for itself .... then perhaps you would reason with ..... a band should be paid from the income they solely produce.

If this is agreed then.....

If a band brings in 50 people (at any type performance) at $10 a ticket .... then the band is paid in the following manner ....

$500 - Band Fee = promoter/venue owner earnings

So to state that a professional band deserves more than a lousy $300 for doing a performance is great if they are first producing the income to allow for their paycheque.

Ok then ..... lets try out this example for the hell of it.....

If your one that believes that a department should be able to pay for itself .... then perhaps you would reason with ..... a band should be paid from the income they solely produce.

If this is agreed then.....

If a band brings in 50 people (at any type performance) at $10 a ticket .... then the band is paid in the following manner ....

$500 - Band Fee = promoter/venue owner earnings

So to state that a professional band deserves more than a lousy $300 for doing a performance is great if they are first producing the income to allow for their paycheque.

Bingo.

Now how many bands can generate $10 a ticket +volume? $5? This IMO is the price tag attached to what the act is worth and thus gets paid.

Thirdly, the logic of your position would suggest that I shouldn't so much as hire a plumber who doesn't have a national reputation. If I have pipe problems and need a local plumber, fast, why shouldn't I hire one?

And with all due respect here is the flaw in that thinking. If you don't hire the plumber and pay his price, your house floods.

If you don't hire the band/performer etc. you find a CD player and stereo and listen to perfectly played, recorded, and familair music the whole time.