General Music Chat

Sorry cant turn the off the harsh thing, got it from my genre.

I would like it if that 10 years down the road someone did a cover on our stuff. Means that we are something to someone.

I see both sides of this honestly.

But a good musician is a good musician, weither they do all covers, no covers or even play a fender. (cant wait to get hate mail from that.)

I could get a Fender to melt your face off. It's not the guitar, it's the pickups.
Throw a Blackout in a strat and see for yerself.

Hey I wanna hear that Bell Tolls cover.
I know, Phil man. I record a take.. then I listen.. I go "hmmm alright.. I'll re-record that part" I end up doing it all over again. In the end, I have bout 6 takes of everything. And I end up putting those parts in stereo.. just to give it the feel of a full sound.
Good stuff, man. Keep on painting.. I mean rockin'.

I still say if you are playing covers in public and expecting to get PAID, that you should learn the song the way the artist intended.

I would like to hear AirVikings For Whom The Bell Tolls myself.

Over the last year and a half I have been heavily immersed in seeing live bands play and I cringe everytime I hear some cover band slaughter someones song. I was out a few nights ago and some friends of mine were playing and the drummer just screwed up the intro to Zeps Rock N Roll. He asked me later what I thought and I said you should just drop the Zep song if you dont know how to start it. It pissed him off, but it was my opinion. But there were people who actually left cause they said these guys sounded bad. They are actually a pretty good band but they were missing ques, changes and endings, to the point it was noticeable to non musicians.


Maybe Im too harsh. But I have to agree with Kramer, for me if you cant play the song by the book your just too lazy to take the time to learn it.

Ive been in both types of bands thru the years, the ones that play it "our way" and the ones that play it by the book. The bands that people remember me for are the ones that played the songs pretty true to the original, not the ones where we slaughtered the songs. Although I still get kidded for one of my "punk bands" that killed everything we touched.

I think anyone on here who goes and actually listens to other bands play feels the same way when someone veers way off from the original.

If I was booking a club the only way to get the "our way" band in is if they have a huge following who just doesnt care what they sound like, otherwise I would book the band that sounds good.

I have no doubt in my mind that I could do better on every song that I play. If I lose this quest to be better I might as well quit.

This is one of if not THE biggest point of contention in almost every band I've been in. Here's some of the advantages of doing covers note-fo-note: 1) You can learn a lot of new licks 2) The more covers you learn the more jobs your band can get, cover bands simply have more paid job opportunities. 3) IF you really crave (or worship) certain artists then note-for-note helps you satisfy your craving 4) Trying to get the exact tone of the original will absolutely help you learn more about the sound capabilities (and limitations) of your equipment. Here's some of the disadvantages of playing note-for-note: 1) This kills your creative interpretation of the tune. 2) MIght get expensive. The more tunes you try and duplicate the more effects, amps, and guitars you might need. (That's okay if you're filthy rich). 3) Living musically vicariously through another person. If you don't mind not being yourself then play note-for-note. 4) IMPROVING ON THE ORIGINAL. Let's face it, some of the parts of the covers we play are BORING. There's also mistakes on some of the covers we are doing. If you play these parts note-for-note then you have no chance of improving the song.
I guess it all comes down to what you want to accomplish as a musician. If you truly enjoy playing note-for-note and it satisfies you then do it. Everybody has their own needs and wants, and this business is all about filling these needs and wants. It can be frustrating at times, but when it all comes together the way you want it to then it's worth it. Time to go fishing. Later...

The more tunes you try and duplicate the more effects, amps, and guitars you might need. (That's okay if you're filthy rich).

I use a gnx3000 pedal, and to date, I haven't found a song that I can't duplicate 90% or better of the original tone and/or effects. The pedal is amazing, and I almost always get props from people when I play out about how amazing all the different sounds are coming from the same guitar!

I should buy a few more on ebay before mine breaks.. they discontinued it and the new model (gnx4) blows chunks.

I dont think this issue is really a point of contention, its just a matter of a musician being disciplined enough to actually learn a piece of music the way it was intended to be heard in the first place.

Sadly at least half of the so called players Ive met in the past couple of years couldnt play a song note for note anyway. They lack the basic discipline to learn the song. To me you have to digest a lot of music to develop your own style.

Personally I would be embarassed as a musician to go out and not give a really good interpretation of a song, but obviously a lot of people even here dont really care what they sound like.

I dont think this issue is really a point of contention, its just a matter of a musician being disciplined enough to actually learn a piece of music the way it was intended to be heard in the first place.

Sadly at least half of the so called players Ive met in the past couple of years couldnt play a song note for note anyway. They lack the basic discipline to learn the song. To me you have to digest a lot of music to develop your own style.

Personally I would be embarassed as a musician to go out and not give a really good interpretation of a song, but obviously a lot of people even here dont really care what they sound like.

there is a group of people who are extremely talented and do know the songs note for note, but just get bored and start re-intrepreting it. It's definately a lust for creativity, and as a fellow musician, I can't say I have a problem with that, but I tried to point out that bar owners probably don't give a crap about creativity and intreptation so much as how well you play a song, which usually to them means, how well can you imitate exactly the recorded version.

It's a bitch.

Kramer I think you and I fundamentally agree on this.

Im not questioning creativity, rather people lacking the discipline to sit down and actually learn a piece of music. And then taking the high road that they are doing something original. If someone is pushing the limits of their playing ability it comes thru loud and clear to me. I give props for musicianship in any context.

This is all just my opinion anyway, I think Philby said what do you think on this subject and I stated my opinion. If you catch one of my bands out playing for money it may not be note for note, but it will be close enough that non musicians will not know the difference and musicians will have to listen hard to hear the difference.

The acid test for me is to record something and listen to what I did. Am I proud of it? Will I still be proud 5-10 yrs from now? Dont take the gift of playing music for granted, it could be taken away at any time.

Ah, but you said it yourself, JW...after awhile, even your own strict take on a song warps & changes, as in Play That Funky Music.

Creative expression is what music is all about, for me. If I can't tap into that, then why should I bother? Why would I want to be someone else?

I think, if you're gonna play everything exactly like the originals, or so close that it makes no difference, then you should just go all the way & make it a true "impression," & dress up like your idols...I think it would be fun to see a band that had an Ace Freeley & a Kurt Cobain & a John Bonham look-alike, too. Sort of a Beatle-Mania thing, yet all mixed up. But it isn't for me, cuz I'm just philbymon, & that's good enough for me & my audience.

I'm surprized at how different your views on this subject are from mine. I thought everyone was sorta doing their own thing. I see that I couldn't have been more wrong, now, though.

When I go out to see a band, I don't go to see how well they can duplicate any particular song. I want to see their own take on it. I want to see something truly unique. That's one of the reasons I would never ever go to see a band like the Eagles. If you go to see them, you may as well put on a CD & listen to that with someone lip-synching to it. Every song is exactly like the album cut. I want to see some true excitement, some expanding on the piece. Now, for some of the real complicated songs like Phish's "Stash," it's true that it is best when it's played note for note, because it's a complete orchestrated piece of music. But for most rock, I want to see some longer leads, some variations on the theme, perhaps even a medley where it warps into something else in a creative fashion.

I guess I'm just not cover band material, due to my strange views on the subject.

Still, I've gotten a good following doing the stuff I do, so I guess it's working for me. I like what I do.

I still contend that what I do is not "jamming," though. It can't be if it is consistant from show to show. And I like to see personal expression from ppl.

I suppose it comes down to what it is exactly that you are looking for. I've worked out tunes note for note, & when I finished, yes, there was a sense of accomplishment. But I think that as a musician, I've gone beyond that, & it's time for me to put my own self into everything that I do. There is a much bigger sense of accomplishment when I can nail a song down, & make it my own. As I said, I've always had to do that as a soloist. When an entire band does it, it's even better, imho.

On the other side of the coin, it's funny that you mentioned "Breathe," Kramer. I'll be doing that in a 3-piece tomorrow night, & I'm not crazy about the arrangement. I'm just a hired gun for this one, though, so I'm doing it in spite of my apprehension. We're doing it, & schmoozing into "Time" & even back into the "Breathe reprise." It's an interesting goal, but I fear we're falling way short. Eh...it's money, & I'm playing, so it isn't totally a loss.

I'll not be auditioning for that band in Winchester, though. It just isn't my thing, & I got bad vibes from them. I may check into the studio work they mentioned, though. It's original material, so it shouldn't be a problem for me to write my own parts. If it's written out for me, though, I'll try to do it anyway. If that band was planning to work a lot more than they say, I'd still consider them, even though it isn't my thing. I've played a lot of stuff that isn't my thing over the years, & I know it's ridiculous to expect everything to go my way all the time. I can & will play note for note if it's absolutely necessary, but I'd much rather not.

All right you got me.

Heck its only rock n roll its not like we are building a rocket where if we do something wrong its going to kill someone.

I guess in my area most of the bands Im hearing are really sucking bad these days or Ive heard them too many times.

My only thing about this site is that you may have some younger musicians coming along trying to get their feet on the ground, who may pass up learning some music in depth and understanding it inside and out and just hacking their way thru it cause older seasoned folks like us say you should just do it your way. My playing suffered for years for lack of discipline so some of the things I say here are just aimed at me anyway.



Kinda in this vein. Next week I am a music teacher at The Southern Girls Of Rock camp in Memphis. Its for girls from 8-17. They come in for a week and basically we teach them in a week how to play an instrument, write a song, form a band, and then perform their work next sat live. I signed my daughter up for this last year, so it will be her second year. They had a documentary a couple of weeks ago about this camp and she and I attended. The spokes lady asked for volunteers for the camp. My daughter said Dad Your Cool And A Rocker, You Should Volunteer. Later on the way home I asked if she was sure she wanted me there. SHe said I dont mind as long as you dont talk to me. Well Ive taken the whole week off and I will be an assistant bass instructor, assistant recording instructor and an assistant band manager. So I guess Im going to have to let my guard down some and let deficiencys go by the wayside.

I guess in the spirit of rock n roll if Elvis had taken my advice the whole course of rock music may have been altered. Pat Boone may have been the king of rock.

I miss teaching

JW - as a teacher, after making my students learn so much stuff note for note, I find that it's often difficult to get them to learn to express their own views, musically. They used to tell me that they could hear things in their head, but couldn't quite seem to bring it out in their fingers. All of us have hit that at some point in our learning. (Like me - every frikken day!)

It's a fine line, I know. But at some point there has to be a series of lessons in improvisation. They must learn to APPLY all those scales & theory that you've taught them, & show that they can indeed use it all in its proper form.

These days, I start earlier, to make it an on-going process. Once they've learned the basic pentatonic scale form, I make them improvise on a basic 12-bar blues pattern with it. Then they have to play the rhythm while I show them some stuff, & then switch back to see if they've been influenced enough by me to go out on a limb & try something on their own. It makes it better for them, I think, & can create a lil spark in their own creative core to reach out & try something new. As they learn new scales, it becomes more & more of a challenge to apply them properly, yet they still must use some of the material from earlier lessons to make things work, too.

I try to dedicate about 10 minutes out of every hour to this, & I think it may be helping them out.

Of course this cannot apply when you're only working with them for 1 week. Then again, I defy you to teach 4 ppl who've never played to learn something note for note & have the entire band pull it off perfectly in a band situation in a single week!

I envy you. I love to teach.

I only wish I had one of those instant CD recorders to have them take home their lessons, esp in this area. Then they could write some licks at home to chord progressions I've played for them, & bring it all back to me for critical grading & assistance where needed.

If I had a buncha students, I'd get me one of those Zoom thingies & use it to death

it would be sad to not be able to learn a song note per note nowadays.
we have things like ultimateguitar.com and stuff.

but i know ppl that honestly cant duplicate the original, its more of a lack of dedication to playing if they cant (in my opinion)

I need to add in my opinion as my quote, so ppl wont try to take it as an absolute. becuase some ppl just lack musical talent, not just dedication.

best thing about music is there is no absolutes.




(In my opinion)

Hey Philbymon it's funny you mentioned Beatlemania. There's a similar band in Kansas City called Liverpool as the Beatles. We opened for them a number of yearsa go at an outdoor festival. I stuck around and watched them. They do an absolutely amazing EXACT copy of the Beatles. They had three shows in one where they dress just like the early few years of the Beatles, then the middle years, then the final years. It was nearly one hundred degrees that day, they must have been hotter than hell in their outfits and wigs. They had the same vintage instruments, their drummer played on a riser, and then they had a keyboard player offstage playing keyboards on the Beatles tunes that had keyboards. I was amazed how exact they sounded but at the same time I felt sorry for them because of how restricted musically they are. It's also funny you mentioned not wanting to see the Eagles in concert. They play all their songs live just like the record. It's almost like they are a TRIBUTE BAND OF THEMSELVES. When we play sometimes I introduce us as Angler Tony & the Blue Marlin Band, a tribute band of fisherman bob & The Bluefin Tuna Band.
Everyone is making valid points about the note-for-note method. Like jw123 said it's very impressive when somebody can reproduce a song exactly or nearly exact. In it of itself that kind of discipline IS very admirable. Certain songs are so defined by a particular guitar lead it almost lends itself to note-for-note interpretation. I've played a lot Freddy King instrumentals over the years and some of those really need to be played as close as possible to the original (not an easy task by the way).
Anyway this is a really good thread. How we interpret songs defines us as musicians. Later...

Funny thing is, I quite agree with everyone here, to a point...each of us has his own take on this subject, yet we all do veer from the original on many many songs without even realizing it, in some cases.

Let's face it. Even the original acts usually do thier own material differently when they play it live, yet still manage to keep the songs in their own unique style. The Eagles are the exception, of course, & most ppl I know that worship their music find their live stuff a bit stale after the 1st couple songs.

The music that Kramer just posted - YYZ - is a perfect example of a piece that is best played note for note. I don't really call that r&r, though. I think of it more like a jazz piece, even though in most of our minds it "rocks." It does have that r&r energy, but when I think of r&r, I guess I think of the genre as a bit more open to personal interpretation than this or "Stash" or many other songs & instrumentals.

When Phish recorded the live version of Stash, I was amazed that they did it note for note, as most ppl think of them as a hippie jam band along the lines of the Dead. Trey Anastasio hated that comparison, & I can definitely see why, even though he alienated a lot of fans by saying so. Phish actually played real musical pieces, & could & did play them note for note, which I find to be a beautiful thing, but they did it with their own music. When they played covers, they put their own twist on them, while keeping signature licks & cues intact.

There have been damned few "professional, high dollar" bands that recorded & played covers very closely to the original. April Wine's 21st Century Schizoid Man is the only one that comes to mind, other than the innumerable tribute bands out there that could possibly be called high dollar pro's.

Why shouldn't we as professional musicians be expected to have our own style, to play covers in our own way? For some of us, it's very satisfying to be able to show that we can play a difficult piece by rote, yet even those of us that do put that much effort into most of our covers, we still like to, & often find it necessary to, change things a bit, to update things, to suit our own needs & styles. These little twists & takes on material is what separates us from the rest.

I suppose that the divide between us is the matter of degree. I, as a pro bass player & acoustic soloist, choose to veer off from originals a bit more often than most, perhaps, but every single one of us does this to some degree. Now it comes to the matter of taste - does it work? Thankfuilly, for me, most often it does. I have to recognize & either correct myself or dump the song when my version doesn't quite cut it.

You can't teach taste, from what I can see. I've seen an awful lot of ppl that have been playing far longer than I who just don't seem to have developed it. But maybe that's just my own taste-buds at work.