General Music Chat

Thats a rip in the fabric man. I detest unions yet I see at times a need for organization. Its like at the onset the "union" is a good thing that enables a groop to overcome some sort of neglect or abuse and in short order it devolves to be the problem and not the cure. Case in point Auto workers abused under paid poor work environment "union" helped change a lot of that then greed, organized crime "union" became a hidding place for halfassed workers turning out the worst products in the world.
Second case in point. Oil Chem and Atomic Workers the division I worked for under Mobil at the time I got laid off was so corrupt they only protected the company from the employees not the other way around.
the saviour may well be electronic communication such as this not a formal union that will invite corruption.

You'd be hard pressed to find "corruption" in the AFM (American Federation of Musicians). They are a wonderful group with an airtight reputation. And although I can only speak for involvement in my local, they do a real service for musicians around here even if the musos aren't in the union.

I'd like to have the AFM around, thanks.

I agree Bob but how does one Given we have this "organization of musicians" go about inforcing the no union no play rules. Most labor unions whom are in force today got there via violence. And there will be scabs= the ones who will play for nothing to cut the "organized players" out of jobs.
Here is a key element to the whole problem that must be solved first.
What do we use for leverage besides violence?

Peer pressure. It actually works. If it gets out here that a union member is playing often enough for less than scale, he finds his opportunities dwindling. And I don't shed a tear about it.

You have to let go of the mob-union mold as a crucible to form all your opinions about unions. Look at them individually. If you are keen to pointing at violence, you may want to look in the other directions - check into the Pinkerton Thugs and other union busting groups over time and you'll have more violence than you can stomach.

Yes, I am aware of the history of violence on both sides of the union story.
My point was that in order for an orginization of the nature being discussed to be effective there must be leverage. And there must be check and balance on said leverage.
It would appear that peer pressure is not enough in the circumstance outline by Mike.
My question remains, How do you go about creating the effective leverage?
If indeed peer pressure worked in the environment you (IRMINSUL)
mentioned. (Forgive my ignorance) How was said pressure created. To say musos who worked under scale found it hard to find work may make sense to you as you areemersed in that environment but I am still in the dark as to the mechanism involved.
Enlighten me please as I have interest in this subject beyong just music.

Yes, I am aware of the history of violence on both sides of the union story.
My point was that in order for an orginization of the nature being discussed to be effective there must be leverage. And there must be check and balance on said leverage.
It would appear that peer pressure is not enough in the circumstance outline by Mike.
My question remains, How do you go about creating the effective leverage?
If indeed peer pressure worked in the environment you (IRMINSUL)
mentioned. (Forgive my ignorance) How was said pressure created. To say musos who worked under scale found it hard to find work may make sense to you as you areemersed in that environment but I am still in the dark as to the mechanism involved.
Enlighten me please as I have interest in this subject beyong just music.

In a word - referrals.

The old adage "word spread like widlfire" is applicable in this instance. Locally, musicians that play for under scale get a rep awfully quickly, and that gets back to the union. Now for the important part about referrals. Our local (104) gives out a ton of referrals to local musicians for good, pricey jobs. I got several recording session or movie soundtrack recording referrals from them that were big money. If the union knows you are doing under scale, hell will freeze over before they give you a referral. What this means is that the under scale players are gradually "frozen out" and stuck with the sh*t jobs or all the freebies they want to play.

So, if you are a player and don't give a crap about making a living with your music, that's no biggie. But if you are a pro and you are looking to either make your living that way or seriously augment your living with music, this denial of good referrals could make or break you pretty fast.

Now this doesn't address how the constant stream of players whoring themselves out on a regular basis are harming the local attitude on paying musicians, but it certainly does provide the "leverage" you speak of without the violence. I really doubt you'd ever see a Matewan War involving a musician's union.

Aw yes That make sense, Thanks for the enlightenment.

Maybe a smarter way to do this music business would be to concentrate entirely on creating music and recording. And then sell your CD's on the web. If it comes down to having to play live for nothing at least you can bring your CD's and promote your music (and sell some to recoup at least some money). I've been trying to get musicians for years into the studio FIRST before we gig. Nobody seems to be interested in doing that. You get a bunch of covers together quick, you go gig for practically nothing, everybody gets burned out, the band breaks up and you've got NOTHING to show for your effort. At least with a CD you've got something to promote your music with, something to possibly sell (if your music is saleable) and a better possibilty of getting better gigs (festivals, opening for a big act, private parties, weddings $$$ etc.). And then maybe on top of that join a union and fill in some gaps in your schedule with some good paying jobs. I have found very few people with THE PATIENCE to do this business the RIGHT way. I'm telling everyone reading this thread if you do any gigs for free you'll always do gigs for free. If every band simply stood up for their rights as HARD WORKING PROFESSIONALS LIKE ANY OTHER HARD WORKING PROFESSION then maybe, just maybe the ripoff mentality toward bands will slowly disappear. YOU CAN'T KEEP GIVING YOUR VERY HARD WORK AWAY. Later...

Bob that's actually been in play for quite some time. When I was with Stonecircle we never relied solely on our fees when we played the festival circuit. The majority of our take home was in product sales (CDs, shirts etc).

Irminsul, I have found it impossible to convince anybody to take the time and make this an ACTUAL BUSINESS, that means laying the groundwork for future SALES (as in making do-re-mi money). Everybody is in such a hurry to play in front of people ASAP. If anybody spends time (countless hours in my case) working on anything there should be a PLAN to make it PAY OFF. Getting just enough cover tunes together and going out and making beer or gas money (if that) isn't a PLAN. You've obviously have got some good business sense (it may have something to do with THINKING THINGS THROUGH TO FRUITION). Finding the right three or four guys who can think beyond their next six pack seems to be a very difficult proposition. These days there's a lot of competition in the music world. Lots of people love to play in a band. Why is it that the same dozen or so bands get nearly 100% of the gigs? It's called MARKETING. They are GAINING SUBSTANTIAL LISTENING SHARE. They are going after a target market in an organized, focused way. They are producing a recognizable PRODUCT and SERVICING that PRODUCT in a reliable way. I have met some incredible musician's who never get out of their basement. Irminsul, I want to thank you for you forum contributions. Maybe some of your ideas may rub off on a few clueless people and get them moving in the right direction, towards the MONEY HONEY. Later...

Irminsul, I have found it impossible to convince anybody to take the time and make this an ACTUAL BUSINESS, that means laying the groundwork for future SALES (as in making do-re-mi money). Everybody is in such a hurry to play in front of people ASAP. If anybody spends time (countless hours in my case) working on anything there should be a PLAN to make it PAY OFF. Getting just enough cover tunes together and going out and making beer or gas money (if that) isn't a PLAN. You've obviously have got some good business sense (it may have something to do with THINKING THINGS THROUGH TO FRUITION). Finding the right three or four guys who can think beyond their next six pack seems to be a very difficult proposition. These days there's a lot of competition in the music world. Lots of people love to play in a band. Why is it that the same dozen or so bands get nearly 100% of the gigs? It's called MARKETING. They are GAINING SUBSTANTIAL LISTENING SHARE. They are going after a target market in an organized, focused way. They are producing a recognizable PRODUCT and SERVICING that PRODUCT in a reliable way. I have met some incredible musician's who never get out of their basement. Irminsul, I want to thank you for you forum contributions. Maybe some of your ideas may rub off on a few clueless people and get them moving in the right direction, towards the MONEY HONEY. Later...

Thanks very much Bob, and I have to say that I think you "get it" when it comes to music as a business. Unfortunately as you have discovered, few fellow musicians seem to have that system of synapses working. Money is a symbol of Mammon, and we all bow down to him to some degree because he is just so powerful in our material world. We can either come to grips with that and make the best of it, or become victims from lack of it. I choose the former, and I see you do too.

Oh well...now the bassist says he's definitely moving! His last gig with us is this Friday.... We've got quite a few future gigs already booked and I posted a bassist wanted ad all over the freakin' place yesterday... Hopefully the position will be filled sooner than later or we are definitely up shits creek!

That sucks, hope you find someone. I've seen plenty of that...

Finding the right three or four guys who can think beyond their next six pack seems to be a very difficult proposition.

The biggest problem I've had with bands, period. If it's not alcohol or drugs it's the wife or girlfriend...

I just hooked up with a local singer/songwriter (and good musician), he alreayd has a band, wants to add me as 4th player and swap leads, plus work up some dual leads. We're starting on some recording, writing some songs and working on some he already had written, getting ready to put together a decent CD to promote then will start booking a lot more. Right now just 2 gigs in the next month, and hopefully I can get him to focus and get the recordings done.

Between us we have a whole band, at least for recording. we both can play guitar, bass, drums and some keys, I play sax and a little flute, can add highlights with a Xylophone (we're looking for spots to drop that in already) and he also has a recording studio/music store here in town where I'm helping out on guitar lessons and repairs.

I also have been working on a much better quality recording of the song in my profile, "Silhouette of A Daydream", it's sounding nice so far. And to my complete surprise, I wrote a complete song last week, in about a half hour. Usually I Can drive myself crazy for 3 weeks and only think up 2 lines, I really suck with lyrics, but this one just popped out with no trouble, I couldn't write them down fast enough...and it sounds good, we already have a rhythm track recorded, but will have to redo it, I played it Friday night for a good friend and found out it's too slow for the lyrics and really hard to sing. But it's a keeper...it was recorded 20 minutes after I wrote it, just one acoustic and my metronome (vintage Seth Thomas tube style) seems to be very inaccurate for some reason, so I had to try without it. Tempo stays pretty good, I just started out too slow...but I do have a sample recording so it won't be lost.

I'll have a recording or two posted soon as we get them finished.

Holy Crap! What a great show we put on last night! The place was hoppin' the people were shaking our hands left and right when we got off... Just all around perfect gig.............until....ummmm..... here, click this thread to see the anger and disdain my singer now has for this club!
Click Here If U Dare!