General Music Chat

I didn't mean to denigrate anyone who is playing for the pure fun of it and trying to make a few bucks while they're at it.

To me, it seems like the risk most musicians don't take, happened when they chose not to write. It is less risky to do covers...more chances of a return on investment of hours practiced.

And I have given up a few times, but for whatever reason, just could not quit. Remember....I didn't get signed until I was 41. It's not over until you decide to quit trying.

The CD I'm working on in Poland today is fantastic! You guys just ain't gonna believe how massive this thing is.

I didn't mean to denigrate anyone who is playing for the pure fun of it and trying to make a few bucks while they're at it.

To me, it seems like the risk most musicians don't take, happened when they chose not to write. It is less risky to do covers...more chances of a return on investment of hours practiced.

And I have given up a few times, but for whatever reason, just could not quit. Remember....I didn't get signed until I was 41. It's not over until you decide to quit trying.

The CD I'm working on in Poland today is fantastic! You guys just ain't gonna believe how massive this thing is.

Ted, the route you have chosen is right for you and I am one of your biggest fans! Having said that what is right for one musician is not necessarily right for all of us.
Personally I tried to make it and put it all on the line. I took the risk, I didn't get the same results.
There is a million reasons for that. Perhaps I and my bandmates wrote the right music at the wrong time? Perhaps our music just sucked? Perhaps we weren't in the right place at the right time? I could go on and on. I will say as a writer and musician I want folks to be realistic and have a backup plan especially the young un's!

A lot of wisdom in those words Jeff. Considering the odds of "making it" are about the same as getting struck by lightning it's really not a backup plan, it's THE plan for most sensible people. Yes, music is my love and a good portion of my life, but I decided a long time ago that I wanted a family and a home, and for me that meant music would not be my main career. And I wouldn't change a thing; I raised great kids, have a beautiful life and still get to write, record and play music on my terms. No regrets, no way!

A lot of wisdom in those words Jeff. Considering the odds of "making it" are about the same as getting struck by lightning it's really not a backup plan, it's THE plan for most sensible people. Yes, music is my love and a good portion of my life, but I decided a long time ago that I wanted a family and a home, and for me that meant music would not be my main career. And I wouldn't change a thing; I raised great kids, have a beautiful life and still get to write, record and play music on my terms. No regrets, no way!

Here Here! You know Jimmy If you are a friend of Ted your a friend to me! Wanna jam?

A lot of wisdom in those words Jeff. Considering the odds of "making it" are about the same as getting struck by lightning it's really not a backup plan, it's THE plan for most sensible people. Yes, music is my love and a good portion of my life, but I decided a long time ago that I wanted a family and a home, and for me that meant music would not be my main career. And I wouldn't change a thing; I raised great kids, have a beautiful life and still get to write, record and play music on my terms. No regrets, no way!

LOL And some of us are plainly not very sensible.. (that's me to a "t")
But fun is where you find it, kind of like HOME.

JW you are not a lush...get real.

I raised great kids, have a beautiful life and still get to write, record and play music on my terms.

me too!



Wow, Jimmy and Jeff agreeing on something? Jesus must be coming back soon?

Have you noticed that lightning strikes in many places around the world every day?

You both are examples of what I'm talking about because you haven't quit. For you, the risk would be touring to support that album you wrote and recorded. In my opinion (and it's only that) the biggest risk is that personnel would quit before you grow the fan base and have enough product on the merch table to make a living as a musician if that's what you wanted to do.

I don't doubt it could be done, if everyone in the band agreed to a plan for it and took the risk. If you are producing music and working, that is "making it" no matter what someone else's measurement of success is. In other words you are already "making it" so it's only a matter of how much risk you'd take to increase from where you are.

I'm not saying my approach is the only one, but I'm never satisfied to stay where I am, always planning for more, always wanting to seize the day. There are many days when I wonder if I've lost my mind; and then there are days when I don't have to wonder. LOL


Quote from Dumb & Dumber:

"So you're saying there's a chance!?"




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This is copied from a thread I'm writing elsewhere about management. Take whatever is pertinent to your situation.

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From the outside, some look more successful than others but there is always a cost. Our own definition of happiness in life is all that matters really.

Some would be happy to live like a gypsy while (most) others would be miserable. If you were to be financially successful and lose your spouse, your kids, your integrity, or your soul then is that really success? I wouldn't compromise on any of those...but there is always that risk.

Obviously there are people willing to sell their soul or grind naked onstage with Robin Thicke. They don't care what comes down the road; today is all that matters. I'd advise against that approach for obvious reasons. Just pointing out that money and fame are primary measurements of success for some people, when it really should not be.

But one can successfully pay the bills as a full-time musician if (a) they've put in the hours to be worth having customers that will buy their "product" (b) they have come up with a reasonable plan and are always in process of fulfilling it (c) they don't quit until it works

I've been self-employed since I was a teenager. It's a different mentality to risk your own time and money for a (possible) payoff in the future. That's where most will shrink back and the fearless will rush in. It is rarely a safe bet. But have you noticed that so many people who are willing to do that are a bit, shall we say...eccentric?

I have found that most artistic types are waiting for someone else to take the risk for them. They think having a manager or a label would fix their situation but it's just not true.

Once a label puts your record out, YOU will have figure out how to take advantage of it before it fades away.



So let's take the different types of managers individually:

What do you think a business manager could do for you?

What do you think a personal manager could do for you?

What do you think a financial manager could do for you?

You don't need a road manager until you've figured those ones out.

In my opinion, Grand Funk (and the like) failed by having their business manager also be their financial manager but that's another topic probably.

The biggest question is where do you need to start? The answer is: a well thought-out plan for achieving reasonable goals in baby steps that lead to walking and then running.

I'd consider making practice once a week ( right now I'd settle for once a month ) and not having to cancel obligations made five days prior to the event a "reasonable goal".

I'm not concerned with "making it" in the get rich be a star aspect.
However I firmly believe that if you want to be a band, you have to be willing to do what it takes to "put yourself out there".

Unfortunately the simple reality of the way the world functions, that in order to "put yourself out there" you have to put yourself out to some degree.

You know all of us that have responded to this thread are all successful musically in our own way!

Since Im the "lush" of the group I tip my hat, and take a big drink to all of you, Im drinking bottled water as I say this,

"I salute you all in your musical journeys, and one day hopefully we can all meet and have a jam!".

Yod - your article excerpt brings up a valid point regarding "making it" (i.e. making a good living making music): managers. They can make or break you, and its not always in your control.
No matter how much risk you are willing to take, and no matter how much good luck you also have, it can take just a minor slip from someone (else) - think Grand Funk - to throw it all away.
I've met a guy in this area that was in a band that had a good local following, they got signed by a label (early 80s), had a couple of albums released, toured nationally as opening act for Aerosmith at big venues. But they never made it further. They're still around, playing the larger local clubs (with some of the same members) about once a month, and he's also playing with 2 other part-time bands, and doing solo shows. So he's making music, but it would be easy for him to be broke in no time if any of the gigs fell through. That's risk-taking and what most people are unwilling to do.

Mike you mention Grand Funk, I may be wrong, but I think they actually invested a lot of thier earnings in thier hey day into real estate, from what I recall reading they dont have to work, maybe Im remembering wrong, but I think I read that in some financial mag, nothing to do with music.

They still play and rock in my opinion, just look em up on youtube.

The split between GF and Knight was not amicable. They accused him of 'double dipping', and he readily admitted that he took 15% after expenses of the bands income. The question on 'expenses' was hard to resolve because he did invest a lot of his money in getting them off the ground, and that's also the shady part of the story, how much he took out in repayment.
I saw Mark Farner last year - you can see a couple of videos on youtube, if you search through my 'other music' channel: http://www.youtube.com/fflbrgst He was loud and distorted, but doesn't play with the others Don Brewer and Mel Schacher any more.

I haven't researched exactly what happened with GF manager, Terry Knight, but I would be very surprised if he took his percentage from the "net" because most take it from the "gross" (total of income)

He probably then took recoupable payments from the net. He managed their income in such a way where everyone got paid, but the musicians were last. They probably never got anything from the label because all recordings are recoupable for the label and the band ends up paying those huge budgets, then has to buy the CD from the label. My guess is that they also gave all their publishing away to their manager or the label too. That really hurts when you don't own the rights to press your own music, or make deals with it.

At the height of the their career GF was making about $350 a week per person. About as much as a carpenter in those days, but with all the insanity of touring constantly to do it. Doubt they had health insurance and benefits!

But that's what a label or big-time manager does. They make you famous and keep all the money for doing it. It's up to you to figure out how to take advantage of that "fame" while you have it. This is why there have been so many one-hit wonders. They didn't come to that reality soon enough.

My label helped me get known within my tiny genre and I'm grateful for it...but I also paid them well over many years for it. It was 4 years before I figured out that simply putting out a record (which I brought them mostly finished) and taking out a single ad in a magazine was all they were going to do on my behalf. The only money I got was when I'd sell it live; and I was paying them almost as much as they were charging the record stores for it.

But it gave me an excuse to tour and live performance is where a musician makes their money these days. I do better in churches/congregations than most of the bands you could name. Who cares if I'm not famous outside of my little circle? It's paying the bills better than when I owned 2 locksmith companies and was a slave to a pager.

This season will end and I'll be ready when it happens, but I'm having a blast here in Poland today making a new CD, with another one happening in Hollywood before the year is finished, so the end doesn't seem to be in sight.

But you guys wouldn't believe the risk either of those CDs have been so far, not to mention when they finally come out. It takes a lot of faith to continue on the merry go 'round.

But what else would I do?




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