General Music Chat

Bottom line is F your originals if people do not want to hear them. the guy who signs the paycheck is the boss and like every other job, play by the rules of hit the road. Since a band didn't invest and share the losses they do not have a right to share the profits. You get what you get or stay home.

I enjoy playing, so the take isn't always the bottom line. In a good club where you are appreciated you do get extra rewards through public appreciation. That does count for something even if it is only to bolster the ego.

I've been on both sides
Musician
MAnagment
Nightclub DJ

I'll tell you this:
The letter author is 1000000% correct.

He doesn't look at musicicans as employees, He looks at them like sub-contractors. Same as I did.
And Bars live and die on Booze sales.

As a Dj I have to announce Drink specials every 45 mins
As a Musician I SHOULD announce drink specials at the beginning and end of every set.
As a manager; I watched how they treated my P.A, treated my waitresses, and above all entertained my Customers.
If they got the girls up dancing, the men buy drinks.
If my DJ makes more people dance in between sets and the band is being background noise...... something is up.

Bar Patrons are RARELY at a bar to listen to a specific DJ or Watch a specific band. There are exceptions but mostly;
They are there to Get hammered, and get laid.

If a band has a following that's a drinking crowd, I would love them
But most cases, it's a water crowd.

When I was managing a bar, my entertainment Budget was No More than 1000.00 total per weekend.
Usually went 800.00 to the band
200.00 in bar tabs to be auctioned/given away by my DJ or the Band.

I'll 2nd or 3rd this letter .. lots of truth there.

If you don't want to work for peanuts .. this is how you do it.
Make them drink ..

At the end of every night I would ask the bar maid what the bar ring was for the night and how it compared to what other bands brought in for a till ring and what the record bar ring was ...
As a band we were always focused on breaking the record and adjusting our set list, performance etc. to get a higher ring each time we played there .. then we could charge more money .. yes that sometimes meant playing Mustang Sally

When I read crap like this I want to puke. The ONLY thing that matters is booze sales, that's it. In a bar environment the music is meaningless if they don't sell booze. Kind of makes me want to sell my equipment and say fu*k it...

Geeze,

it's a business, Bob.

Please no offense. But what if people wanted you to play for free everywhere? Wouldn't you tell them your time was worth something, your investment in equipment was worth something and you had to charge for your expenditures?


I never operated a bar but: Most bar owners I have spoken to through the years spent more than a year or years going with out pay and working second jobs to just to get a place going. Many divorces came from some of those long ours and a mate that didn't agree with the whole deal. Some guys literally lost some years of their lives trying to make their dream come true. And you feel like "F" them because they don't care about the music?

Did I friggin miss something here?

How about "F: your music.?

The bar owner and staff don't hire you to hear your music. They know that they aren't there for no stinkin concert. They have jobs to do. It is the customers who are supposed to be the recipients of the music, so that the guy can get a little satisfaction and success for all the crap he went through.

When I read crap like this I want to puke. The ONLY thing that matters is booze sales, that's it. In a bar environment the music is meaningless if they don't sell booze. Kind of makes me want to sell my equipment and say fu*k it...

Totally agree.

How do you ever know what your originals are worth if you don't play them ?

My girlfriend & I are split on this.
She has the mindset of "no compromise" when it comes to playing bars, "f*ck them if they don't like our music.

I am at least a realist, to see things from the club owner's point of view.
I think the letter is pretty reasonable.
Like the club owner said in the film "Man on The Moon",
"This is show-business.
Show... BUSINESS... Show... BUSINESS.
Without the BUSINESS there's no SHOW."

How do you ever know what your originals are worth if you don't play them ?

There are clubs that cater to Cover bands, and to Original acts.

I strongly suspect the writer of the Letter was one of the Former.
The bar I managed was a cover band place.
I occasionally brought in original acts on a Thursday or Sunday.
Didn't pay them a dime. I gave them a Stack of tickets; real ones that cost me 75 bucks from a local printer for 1000
The band sold them before their show, and kept the money, I had a $0.50 shooter cupon on the stub so I could track how much foot traffic they generated.

MY expenses for the night?
6 hours for 3 waitresses
Flat fee for the sound guy
9 hours for 2 bartenders
6 hours 4 security/bouncers.

So my expenses before the night even starts are:

Min wage in Alberta (liquor sales rate) 9.05/hour
Bartenders= $162.90
Waitresses= $162.90

Bouncers/Security get higher pay: (12/hour)= $288.00
Sound Guy= 100.00 flat fee.

Totals: 713.80 in labour
I used to order inventory on a BI-weekly basis.

So your Original Act HAD BETTER bring in at least 100 people spending minimum 20 bucks each:
for 2000.00 for me as a bar owner or manager to justify opening my establishment and bringing in enough staff to service the customers.

If you want to sell YOUR music, go to a venue that caters to original acts, and BE prepared to step up.

Hustle to sell tickets
Get bodies in the door.
Sell your CD's or Download cards.

"It's a long slow road to overnight success" - Unknown[/u][/i]

I shattered a booze sale record last summer with an original band.
We played two covers just because it was fun to do.

It's possible to generate a lot of money, but you have to be make yourselves an event.

JW, this is in NO WAY directed at you, bro... (my responses, which follow)

I ran across this letter on a friends page on FB, thought I would share it here.

A bar, that is, an establishment that earns its revenue primarily from selling alcoholic beverages, measures its success by the ounce and the accounting is done everyday because we mostly live on the edge. So we spend our time trying to figure out how to sell more ounces. It’s not just how many people are in the house or how great the atmosphere is (that’s certainly important), but how many drinks, preferably premium, we sell in a day. That’s it.

Agreed.

Live music is important to most of us (if we have that kind of venue). But it is a significant expense and is only worthwhile if it produces more than it consumes, just like advertising and anything else we spend money on in order to sell more ounces. But so many of the bands that come through here have no clue what their job is. Your job is to sell booze. You’re not here for any other reason.

Disagree. Who hires a fkn plumber to come in there and sell booze?. What on earth makes a bar think its okay to hire a band of musicians to come in there and 'sell' booze. If they want to sell more booze, hire a friggin waitress as a server for the bar, and make damn sure he or she has big tits. (Which she should get paid more by the house, if he or she exposes them)

There are some truly awful bands that actually chase customers away. But there are also some bands I would call mediocre who do a fantastic job of selling my product. There are also some really good bands who rock the house but not the cash drawer. While I appreciate good music and would never have an interest listening to that mediocre band’s lame CD, they’re coming back next week. Here’s why:

There just as easily other BAD customers who chase away business. That arg is bullshit and dont fly, to justify abusing musicians.

1. They play simple music people recognize. People don’t dance to brilliant guitar solos or heady changes, they dance to the hook lyrics of a simple chorus. (If you've ever wondered why pop is popular, that’s why). When the ladies want to dance, the guys show up and everybody drinks. Simple truth.

Indeed, so basically, if you want music that sucks, and you're just there to prowl a meat market...then yeah, its a good viable theory. Most bars fail to admit that they aren't much more than a pimp house, when it comes right down to it. But please don't insult musicians with this crap. Truth is, there are outstanding bands out there that wouldn't touch a sheet-hole like the one just described...unless of course they get duly paid and the bar owner isn't too bad of a whiner.

2. They don’t ask me for drinks, they ask my customers. This is a subtle art and if it’s done well, the band can more than pay for itself. Here’s a few obvious techniques:
If someone offers to buy the band a round, you order shots of top-shelf. Even if you don’t drink it, ask for it anyway. If someone asks for a request, try to make a deal with them. If you buy (your date, your table, the band) a round, we’ll play your song. Some bands beg for tips, and that’s fine, but it’s not what I’m paying you for. (Try to play request anyway. At least you wont chase them off.) We had one front man hold up a mixed drink and make a wonderfully cheesy but impassioned pitch that you simply had to try this because it was, as he put it, “a glass of pure happiness”. It resulted in over a hundred bucks in the drawer in just a few minutes. Those guys are busy.

Sounds just like the whore houses I used to frequent in Olongopo, PI. But in fact, unlike here...they loved me long time...lol!

3. They may not be the best band in town but they look and act professional. I cringe when I see a supposedly professional band wearing frayed khaki shorts, flip flops, mildly offensive t-shirts and greasy baseball caps (the standard bro uniform). I don’t care if you’re bald, a baseball cap is unacceptable. Live music is a visual form of entertainment. If you dress well, even if it’s hipster, funky, weird or flamboyant, as long as you look like you care about your appearance, and show a little self respect, you’ll go over better with my customers.

Lest just pretend for a fleeting fantasy moment, that I was the world's greatest guitarist... After this paragraph, he done lost my attention... AGAIN... if you want a booze sales person, Hire sexy waitresses. Don't waste time or lecture musicians on how to dress... Seriously....Lets also remember, If I'm Mr Funky Flamboyant Joe and the Wonder dogs, you can bet your alcohol saturated ass that your customers were probably my 'fans' first, and you should be bowing down to me, paying tribute to me for bringing them into your lame-ass bar..

The good bands also respect their gig and the customers. They show up on time, they don’t make a racket while they setup (hint: keep your drummer quiet especially when the jukebox is on.), they choose their set list carefully, they pace their sets well and stay engaged with the audience (don’t stop playing if the dance floor is full), they don’t get hammered and and they don’t leave a mess. All this adds up to what we call retention. Customers don’t leave. You would be surprised how many customers leave because of the band. And it’s usually not because the band is awful, but because it’s too loud, it’s the wrong repertoire, it’s rude and dismissive, it’s not engaged and basically no fun for anyone else but themselves. And here’s a little tip: Your continued employment is directly dependent on my bartender’s opinion of you. That’s probably true for every single bar you play.

This is standard practice, i would suppose... for any band who truly is professional. Speaking of professionals...he forgot to mention the part where a self respecting professional band should get paid well, like professionals. And by the way... If anybody has ever noticed...with really hot acts, forget about the stupid jukebox...its gonna get buried or outright ignored by the fans' clatter.

One last thing. It’s hard to find work. You might be surprised at how much competition you have. I get emails, voicemails, regular mail, fed-ex packages left for me, all with earnestly concocted press kits and demos and I ignore almost all of it. I get walk-ins who, if I’m there, I’ll give a few minutes to.

That's only a problem for musicians who actually desire to play at this venue. If I were a critic, a promoter or agent, I'd scratch this guy off my list.

Again, you’d be surprised how many show up in their bro-clothes, tell me how awesome they are, and hand me a business card with a URL to their reverb nation page or YouTube channel. They probably go home and wonder why they don’t get a call, but I’m not going to visit your website or listen to your demo. You’ve got maybe 60 seconds to make your “elevator pitch” and just a few more minutes to make it stick. There is a sales technique I’m seeing that’s impressive, stands out and really works, but out of respect for the bands that figured it out, call it a trade secret.

I hope this guy has a club big enough to contain that bodacious ego of his...yikes!... Scratch him of every list I can contact...

Bottom line: A bar is a business. My bar is my business, my life, my success or failure. What I do in my business is entirely up to me because the risk is entirely mine. If I have a jam night, an open mic, solos, duos, bands, karaoke, or just a jukebox, that’s up to me and no one else. Whatever helps make the most revenue. I have great respect for working musicians and would rather not hire them at all than to short-change them.

This dude is absolutely worthless....Sorry but its true... Not the kind of guy I would ever venture in with... I Have to ask , how long has he been in this business? He's pretty keen on saving the buck, but totally lacks in the risk dept, and for that matter, taste.

The open mic and jams that seem to get so much criticism here are not about me getting free entertainment, they are about bringing in paying customers and keeping them here. People who play and sing, but not in a professional band, like to get out, get a little stage time, have some fun, bring their friends and I offer them the place to do it. And yes, these nights are pretty good for the bottom line. If having bands was better, I’d have bands every night. It’s just reality, man.

[/quote]

That's his reality...That's fine. he's got every right to express it, believe it and so on... I dont buy his explanation though about open mics. If he holds these mid week, the are doing him a favor by giving him business he would not otherwise have. If he holds them on weekends, he's a hurtin unit and bound for bellyups-ville relatively soon.

I just don't like the attitude. Yeah it can be a business thing. WTFEver..
(maybe he should hire the rolling stones)

It isn't about your measly $, not for the regular musicians.

Go hire someone that's going to take the abuse smiling.

Some will punch you right in your fat ass nose...
Nothing like a mean old drunk of a bar owner that is tight with the $.

Makes you wonder if he'll even pay you at the end of the night..

"You don't have to try anything and I ain't selling anything unless it suits me".

Why do you have to trick and lie to the crowd?
Is that why you like to perform? Take up a new hobby.

What this idiot (bar owner) says is the essence of what's wrong with "music" today. It has reached a level of vapidity that makes my stomach turn. Maybe I'm too old. Maybe I'm not "hip" any more. Maybe I'm just a waste of space. Maybe I need to put on a monkey suit when I perform, wear a jacket made of meat, perhaps a mask, sit in a wheelchair, do "something" to atttract people to the music, make people drink more, play Pit Bull, Kenny Chesney and Lady Gaga tunes note-for-note, invite people who can't sing or play an instrument to save their life to sit in with the band so that their friends will "drink more."
Fu*k it....

When you agree to hire out for any job, you don't tell the guy who signs the paycheck that you are going to do it your way. No one has to play, but then no one has to get paid either. If the boss thinks that he knows what his customers want that is what he should get as long as he is footing the bill.

Attracting customers who support the establishment is the the goal, making a living is the bottom line.

Anyone believing otherwise should open their own bar and play whatever they wish to play.

When you agree to hire out for any job, you don't tell the guy who signs the paycheck that you are going to do it your way. No one has to play, but then no one has to get paid either. If the boss thinks that he knows what his customers want that is what he should get as long as he is footing the bill.

Attracting customers who support the establishment is the the goal, making a living is the bottom line.

Anyone believing otherwise should open their own bar and play whatever they wish to play.

Slacker, In principle, you are absolutely correct. But lets examine the white elephant in the room that nobody seems to talk about. <grrr>

- A musician is not a fkn bar waitress, or for that matter an employee of the bar.

-A Musician produces, organizes, sets up and delivers a facet of entertainment to audiences. There is no evidence to suggest that Music, by design 'invokes thirst' in bar patrons. (and FK the assholes who think it does... )

A musician should not have to suffer concern about a bar owners's economic dilemmas. (Any more than a plumber should)

When you hire a plumber to fix pipes, you don't ask him to drop what he's doing and figure out a way to finesse boozes sales (WTF???)

The white elephant here is that bar owners want music for free and without responsibility to the musicians. They believe that 'music' will boost their sales. I say PAY THE FKN BAND or get up there and start singing, yourself

I said this before...Most bars (not all) are just crappy shit-house hard lemonade stands.

Nightclubs... Well They are expensive facilities for general lease and bookings, who happen to also sell a lot of liquor.

Anyway its sliced, Bar owners need to pay their fkn bands or they just need to stick to karaoke and juke boxes.