General Music Chat

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll start with the truss rod (with caution) and if necessary will follow up with the bridge.

Slacker, the dead-string zone graduates from fret 9; peaks at fret 11, and then graduates back to normal. Open string sounds fine, and stays tuned.

If neither of these approaches work, then I have a warranty cert , which I'll exercise with Martin

Jeff, I checked the frets to see if any needed filing... They all seemed to be in pretty great shape...

Martin has a lifetime warranty so call them up and find which service center in El Paso is an authorized repair center and get the repair done for free..

Martin has a lifetime warranty so call them up and find which service center in El Paso is an authorized repair center and get the repair done for free..

Thanks Dane, will do.

If the frets don't need to be dressed it sounds like a neck issue. You can't beat the tone of a Martin but I had the neck on my D-28 reset three times! After the last time I just got rid of it, which is why I'm still looking for something to replace it.

Ouch and I like the sound of a Martin as well.

Makes me think twice about owning one.

Slacker, the dead-string zone graduates from fret 9; peaks at fret 11, and then graduates back to normal. Open string sounds fine, and stays tuned.

You will find that a truss rod generally has "0" adjustment at that section of the neck. Hold the E string down at the first and the 12th fret. Look to see if the neck is bowed. In other words, use your strings as a straight edge to see how much the strings deviate from the string. You cab see at a glance if there is a bow. If it is between the fret and seventh fret it will, in most cases move slightly without bowing the straight section towards the string. If it is a long even "bow" from the first fret to the 12th fret, the neck will straighten.

On closer examination (and using Slackers suggestion to check for bowing) I noticed that the string practically kissed every fret, flush across the board. there was no gap or bowing. I also noticed that when comparing (open stringed) the seated level of that string against other strings, this one really sunk down . (Think of a cross section where 5 strings are equal height from the fret board, but the 1st string is at a lesser height from the fret board. That string is kissing the frets, end to end. Weird! But I'll have them look at it.

Also noticed that when I Tune back to concert pitch the tension seems to improve the string. (This is a sure sign that the truss needs adjusting)

I forgot to mention that I drop tuned the strings to learn Steve Winwood's "Cant find my way home"..

Did you know...he down tunes the whole damn deck a whole step...Then he Drop D's the 6th string. I guess he has to, in order to match his voice to key and pitch. It also explains why after that video , the entire crew swapped out guitars after they finished that song... LOL!

well that explains alot

I do not believe that guitar will tolerate too much of that.

Probably the weather changes causing neck tension to change.

I used to do all my own setups and neck adjustments, intonations, etc.

I learned that a professional still does it better, and I have a guitar tech that takes care of all of my guitars now. She is a master of her craft, and it's amazing how often she needs to adjust the neck and action to make up for use and weather changes.

I end up having her reset or replace the nut and redress the frets about once every 2 years on each guitar, but I gig and rehearse a LOT.

1. DO NOT touch the truss rod. A lot of myths out there, it only needs to be adjusted if it actually needs it and is very easy to break. That repair costs more than a new guitar.

2. A couple of things come to mind that could be causing this that have already been mentioned. Those need to be checked. Mainly has the string trough in the bridge been cut too deep. Strings can do that on their own by vibration, that's why nuts need to be re cut or replaced after a few years of hard playing.

3. Fret leveling - Already mentioned, is not that hard to do if you have some decent tools. To check it, pull the strings aside and look at the frets underneath. Usually found near the nut where you play a lot of open chords, you'll see little troughs under each string dug into the frets. If you don't see those at the point it's giving you trouble, that's not the problem.

Can be done a couple of ways. A 10 inch or so fine cut file with the tang bent upwards works well, hold it at about a 10 degree angle and run it down the frets. DO not drag the file backward, that dulls it, forward only.

Or, a long, old style wood plane with blade removed, fine grit sandpaper taped to it works very nicely too, it's straight, and heavy enough you don't have to use much pressure, let its own weight do the work. Stop soon as the fret wear disappears.

Then they need to be crowned...that means a hump filed on top of each one. Tedious, time consuming, but that's the way they come from the factory so you have a narrow contact surface.

Truss rod - Puts pressure against the neck to create what is called back bow. A properly adjusted neck should not be perfectly straight, it should have a very slight back bow. In other words, the neck should bow very slightly away from the strings at the middle frets, around where you play a barre E or so. This is a very small difference, but it gives the strings room to vibrate in the middle and not buzz on the frets.

Strings move in a vibrational pattern that looks just like a jump rope. Very little at the nut and bridge and a lot on the middle. We're only talking .015 inch here though, not much...I keep a 2 foot machinist rule for checking it. Long as the neck and straight, if I can slip a business card under it in the middle I leave it alone. If you can slip a credit card under it that's the maximum back bow.

The only time the truss rod should be touched is if it does not have that back bow, or has too much. And it MUST be done right. A drop of oil on the business end, let it sit overnight. (You know what kind of environments guitars go through, do you really think that nut has NO rust????) tightening the nut clockwise bends the neck straighter, and closer to the frets ion the middle, for less back bow. Loosening creates more back bow.

IMPORTANT - one quarter turn maximum, let it sit overnight to settle in. Check it, adjust if necessary, let it sit overnight again. I prefer to let it sit 2 days if possible. Do not get in a hurry. Truss rods break very easily. Just trust me on that one... Should not be touched unless definitely proven necessary. If you have the least bit of doubt that you can do it properly, take it to a good repair guy. If you screw up, the neck is toasted, the only repair is replacement. Expensive...

Truss rod has nothing to do with action or intonation, as some people will try to tell you. Its only function is to create and adjust back bow, period. That tiny difference will not affect action or intonation, but do check intonation when doing any repairs on a guitar with adjustable bridge. And always check intonation with new strings.

I think there is a possibility the problem you describe could also be caused by something coming loose, my guess would be the glue holding the fret board down could be letting go a tiny bit in that area, or possibly the block at the end of the neck, but I would think it would be all the way across the neck if it were the inside block, not just a couple of strings.

I was going to mention another idea I had after logging off, but on closer read I see something I missed that is a different problem.

And it's not the truss rod. If you have no string clearance in the middle, it might need adjustment, you should be able to slip a business card under the string at the 8th fret or so if you hold it down at 1st and last frets. Or by using a straight edge like I use. Either will work fine. But check it right, by using a business card or feeler gauge, you can't "see" the right clearance. Holding the string down takes two people, or use a capo at 1st fret and hold the other end, that leaves a hand free for feeler gauge.

The truss rod won't cause what you're describing, if it's too straight the strings should buzz all over the place, and may sound dead but it would be everywhere, not just at one point. That's because the strings don't have room to vibrate and rattle against any nearby fret. If it has too much back bow it won't affect sound at all. The only thing I know of it will cause is by pushing the strings that far it can cause slight intonation problems, by stretching the string too much. And this would only be noticeable if you have a really good ear..

The string causing trouble is lower than the others it sounds like. That's in the bridge, and I think someone else already mentioned this. Check your bridge and see if it has a groove worn in it from the string. Probably does. In that case it's a fairly easy fix, a new bridge saddle (just the white insert, not the whole thing) should be under $20, I think I paid $12 for my last one. Don't let a salesman talk you into anything but real bone. Plastic is probably why you have this problem, imitation bone is not the same. Go for bone. It will last a lot ;longer than the one you're replacing, which is probably plastic. I was not happy to find out my $800 Takamine had a cheap plastic bridge saddle. It got replaced immediately with bone. I already know what happens with plastic...strings bite into it and cause grooves, and you're probably looking at the results. Bone takes 30 years or more to do this, plastic takes less than 10.

You'll need sandpaper or a file and some patience. The saddle is either a rectangular blank or a pre formed arch that is too tall. (Oh, get a bone one not plastic, and not the imitation bone jobs.) Place your old saddle on top of it and trace it with a sharp pencil, with the tops evened up. Forget about the bottom, you're about to sand it off.

To get the same bridge height you have now, the only way to do it is to sand off the bottom, (or file it, but be careful and check it often) but you definitely want a line there to go by, the one you just traced. Trust me it's easy to go too far and go buy a SECOND saddle...been there done that...so you want a line there for height. round off the corners, but DO NOT touch the top where the strings sit if it already has a pre formed arch on top.

If your new blank is not already arched, then you have to sand it to match the old one, at the top where the strings sit. Don't put string grooves, they're not needed. Only the nut requires string grooves. The top should also have a rounded top or crown, same as frets. This is why you can get them already done on top, it's not easy to get it right. Arch and crown is a tedious job, but can be done.

Take your time and be careful, I do my tracing with a very fine point sharpie so it won't rub off by handling it, but then you have to sand that off too, it's permanent. If you have any leftovers on top or ends, that is...Use 180 grit to start, when you get close go to 320 or 400 grit and take your time with it.

If the replacement saddle is way too long, it can be cut with a hacksaw, carefully, and leave it a bit too long.

Again take your time, be careful and it's not a hard job to do, but it needs to be right. If you sand it too low, it can be shimmed with thin plastic. The clear plastic school report covers available at dollar stores make decent shims, or if you can find it, the brass shim stock used in machine shops is great, comes in different thicknesses starting at .001 inch. That's what I use, I still have some left over from my days as a machinist. But very little...and mostly way too thick, .030 inch.

sorry about your martin woes, grant.

i was gonna suggest that perhaps you have a fret that's "climbed"....as in risen up and out a little from it's slot. but if i understand you correctly this is happening over a span of several frets...so it's unlikely they ALL have risen in that one spot.

because this is only happening on the "E" and "B" strings it sounds like maybe your neck has developed a twist or an "S" curve. if that's the case (and you should be able to tell by sighting down the neck both ways) all the fret dressings, truss rod adjustments, and new saddles in the world ain't gonna help one bit. pretty much the only remedy there is removing the frets and replaning the fingerboard to straighten things out. as you can imagine this is a fairly involved and expensive procedure... and on a cheaper Martin would most likely not be a good use of your moolah unless you're particularly attatched to this guitar for some reason.

good luck and let us know how it all shakes out.

I was going to mention another idea I had after logging off, but on closer read I see something I missed that is a different problem.

And it's not the truss rod. If you have no string clearance in the middle, it might need adjustment, you should be able to slip a business card under the string at the 8th fret or so if you hold it down at 1st and last frets. Or by using a straight edge like I use. Either will work fine. But check it right, by using a business card or feeler gauge, you can't "see" the right clearance. Holding the string down takes two people, or use a capo at 1st fret and hold the other end, that leaves a hand free for feeler gauge.

The truss rod won't cause what you're describing, if it's too straight the strings should buzz all over the place, and may sound dead but it would be everywhere, not just at one point. That's because the strings don't have room to vibrate and rattle against any nearby fret. If it has too much back bow it won't affect sound at all. The only thing I know of it will cause is by pushing the strings that far it can cause slight intonation problems, by stretching the string too much. And this would only be noticeable if you have a really good ear..

The string causing trouble is lower than the others it sounds like. That's in the bridge, and I think someone else already mentioned this. Check your bridge and see if it has a groove worn in it from the string. Probably does. In that case it's a fairly easy fix, a new bridge saddle (just the white insert, not the whole thing) should be under $20, I think I paid $12 for my last one. Don't let a salesman talk you into anything but real bone. Plastic is probably why you have this problem, imitation bone is not the same. Go for bone. It will last a lot ;longer than the one you're replacing, which is probably plastic. I was not happy to find out my $800 Takamine had a cheap plastic bridge saddle. It got replaced immediately with bone. I already know what happens with plastic...strings bite into it and cause grooves, and you're probably looking at the results. Bone takes 30 years or more to do this, plastic takes less than 10.

You'll need sandpaper or a file and some patience. The saddle is either a rectangular blank or a pre formed arch that is too tall. (Oh, get a bone one not plastic, and not the imitation bone jobs.) Place your old saddle on top of it and trace it with a sharp pencil, with the tops evened up. Forget about the bottom, you're about to sand it off.

To get the same bridge height you have now, the only way to do it is to sand off the bottom, (or file it, but be careful and check it often) but you definitely want a line there to go by, the one you just traced. Trust me it's easy to go too far and go buy a SECOND saddle...been there done that...so you want a line there for height. round off the corners, but DO NOT touch the top where the strings sit if it already has a pre formed arch on top.

If your new blank is not already arched, then you have to sand it to match the old one, at the top where the strings sit. Don't put string grooves, they're not needed. Only the nut requires string grooves. The top should also have a rounded top or crown, same as frets. This is why you can get them already done on top, it's not easy to get it right. Arch and crown is a tedious job, but can be done.

Take your time and be careful, I do my tracing with a very fine point sharpie so it won't rub off by handling it, but then you have to sand that off too, it's permanent. If you have any leftovers on top or ends, that is...Use 180 grit to start, when you get close go to 320 or 400 grit and take your time with it.

If the replacement saddle is way too long, it can be cut with a hacksaw, carefully, and leave it a bit too long.

Again take your time, be careful and it's not a hard job to do, but it needs to be right. If you sand it too low, it can be shimmed with thin plastic. The clear plastic school report covers available at dollar stores make decent shims, or if you can find it, the brass shim stock used in machine shops is great, comes in different thicknesses starting at .001 inch. That's what I use, I still have some left over from my days as a machinist. But very little...and mostly way too thick, .030 inch.

Pete Thanks For responding to this... I think you nailed it about the bridge. I looked very carefully at the neck and I just couldn't see any thing wrong with it...It has the natural slope that allows the string set to resonate normally (without requiring all the PSI I can apply in one finger lol!) Since All the other strings resonation and action is good, the neck would not be the issue. . When I change out my strings,I'mm gonna look at that insert for cuts made by the string. I bet that's the culprit...

That's my best guess, without being able to have it in my hands. I'd know in 5 minutes or less, and if it's the saddle like I think, I'd have it playing again the next night.

I wish I had the one I pulled out of my Takamine, I could show you a picture of what to look for, but it's easy. Very light indentions from the strings are no problem. If it's half the string diameter, replace the saddle, problems or not. The saddle starts off with no string grooves at all.

I thought Planet Guy had also hit on a possibility I didn't think of, frets can get loose and climb in their slots, especially after a refret job, and I've seen several twisted necks. Either could cause similar problems. Then I saw you had already looked at that, but he did have a very good point. Had a friend who had a refret problem like that, he had it looked at 3 or 4 times till yet another repair guy looked around for a couple of minutes and grabbed a small wood mallet. Loosened the strings, pulled them out of the way, gave the offending fret a light whack, told him to go try his bass out. It never went back to the shop...