General Music Chat

get a bunch of great musicians together but the drummer ain't happenin'....you ain't got much.

but get some average musicians w a great drummer....a great drummer can make 'em sound really good.

Isn't it true though that in traditional Jazz, the Bass guitar holds down the meter the meter?

nah...everyone is responsible for good time. as to "holding it down" (time) i'd still say the drummer is in charge.

a lot of folks mistakenly think that's cos the drummer can be the loudest but it's cos of the way drummers subdivide time.

if the bass player is walking a 4/4 line w quarter notes or playing w a "two feel" and the drummer is playing smaller notes like 1/8ths or 1/16th notes on his ride or hi-hat....then the drummer "owns the time" and sets tempo because those shorter notes define the time more clearly and authoritatively.

get a bunch of great musicians together but the drummer ain't happenin'....you ain't got much.

but get some average musicians w a great drummer....a great drummer can make 'em sound really good.

Isn't it true though that in traditional Jazz, the Bass guitar holds down the meter the meter?

nah...everyone is responsible for good time. as to "holding it down" (time) i'd still say the drummer is in charge.

a lot of folks mistakenly think that's cos the drummer can be the loudest but it's cos of the way drummers subdivide time.

if the bass player is walking a 4/4 line w quarter notes or playing w a "two feel" and the drummer is playing smaller notes like 1/8ths or 1/16th notes on his ride or hi-hat....then the drummer "owns the time" and sets tempo because those shorter notes define the time more clearly and authoritatively.

Well stated

Music is a sonic painting. The drummer and bass player set up the background. When all is going well, it leaves a lot of room for the other members to do their thing without having to maintain the tempo. On the other hand, a drummer who is constantly "building houses", no matter how good he is, really screws up what the other musicians are doing.

I prefer recording with canned drums. I feel I can always have a live drummer put down a track later on, but the solid tempo of canned drums leave little room for error.

Some may argue that spontaneity is lost when using canned drums. It doesn't hinder mine. In fact I feel far more secure when I try out new licks since I don't worry about where the drummer will be when I throw something unexpected his way.

Dang, I thought you were saying your drummer is impotent!

Seriously, why do drummers feel the need to play songs too fast? It kills the groove for the other folks in the band. EVERY drummer I have EVER played with does this even ones that TEACH drums for a living! I played with ONE drummer that would sometimes play the first 3 or 4 songs too fast after he settled down he would play the songs at a good tempo. Maybe you drummers could answer this question for me?

Dang, I thought you were saying your drummer is impotent!

Seriously, why do drummers feel the need to play songs too fast? It kills the groove for the other folks in the band. EVERY drummer I have EVER played with does this even ones that TEACH drums for a living! I played with ONE drummer that would sometimes play the first 3 or 4 songs too fast after he settled down he would play the songs at a good tempo. Maybe you drummers could answer this question for me?

Its not 'unmanly' for a drummer to use a click track... Some drummers follow the song rhythm pace and temp from the guitarists/ bassists, and if that instrument starts increasing the BPS, the drummer is inclined to run with that, so the whole song increases. Next thing ya know people are dropping off from exhaustion

Ideally, SInce the drummer sets the tempo, Guitarsists /bassist should by all accounts adapt to the drummer.'s tempo. But , to ensure that the tempo is optimally correct, the drummer either needs to have impeccable timing, for meter and pace, or should prolly use a click track to guide the pace.

And some drummers don't want to use a click track because they think they are completely accurate with their BPM rates.

When I saw Rush 2 weeks ago, they obviously had a clicktrack going for most songs as each one was started by Peart - all necessary because of the backing tracks, of course.

And some drummers don't want to use a click track because they think they are completely accurate with their BPM rates.

When I saw Rush 2 weeks ago, they obviously had a clicktrack going for most songs as each one was started by Peart - all necessary because of the backing tracks, of course.

and that might be one of the reasons i don't care for RUSH. i don't necessarily wanna hear "metronomic" timekeeping. for my tastes.....that approach to time never grooves.

listen to any of the great groove drummers like Levon Helm, Ringo, Jim Keltner, Zigaboo Modeliste (Meters), any of the great drummers that played w James Brown.....ain't none of that is ever "metronomic". and some of the tunes might slow down or speed up a little. but if everyone in the band is slowing down and speeding up TOGETHER.....who gives a flying leap? i mean if ain't goin' from 90 BPM to 180 BPM????

time is a living breathing thing that needs to breathe and contract and open back up. i just don't think you can acheive that playing to click.

I dont know, the guy I play with I have played with so long that even if his meter gets a little off we all seem to go with the flow, we did one gig with a sitin drummer who has what I call perfect meter and it was kinda frustrating, I want to push and pull thru songs, and I know thats not the way to do it, but I cant stand all that polish myself.

It seems that most songs we do I start them so I set the meter, LOL, which is ussually way off.

f**k Guys its only rock n roll!

But I agree a drummer can make or break a band. Ive played with a few that definitely didnt have thier act together and it showed.

And some drummers don't want to use a click track because they think they are completely accurate with their BPM rates.

When I saw Rush 2 weeks ago, they obviously had a clicktrack going for most songs as each one was started by Peart - all necessary because of the backing tracks, of course.

and that might be one of the reasons i don't care for RUSH. i don't necessarily wanna hear "metronomic" timekeeping. for my tastes.....that approach to time never grooves.

listen to any of the great groove drummers like Levon Helm, Ringo, Jim Keltner, Zigaboo Modeliste (Meters), any of the great drummers that played w James Brown.....ain't none of that is ever "metronomic". and some of the tunes might slow down or speed up a little. but if everyone in the band is slowing down and speeding up TOGETHER.....who gives a flying leap? i mean if ain't goin' from 90 BPM to 180 BPM????

time is a living breathing thing that needs to breathe and contract and open back up. i just don't think you can acheive that playing to click.

I suppose it depends on a number of factors . Dont be fooled though. Guys like Ringo will never tell you the tricks he uses...He just says he starts banging them... (Which is only part true)
In Jazz its critical to be impeccable and not rely on metronome. But in driving, hard rock... Sometimes it really is necessary ... The difference could be thought of like this... Jazz is like a winding road that has peaks, valleys doglegs etc... the lanes offer margin of breadth in the drive. On the other hand, heavy metal rock for example is like a railroad track with fixed ties. Ever notice that Jazz players (at large) are cool minded, and you cant tie em down to any one precise musical principle, whereas Rock players need to master the routines with brute discipline, same way, same time, every time... I never ever saw the same jazz show twice, ever... but I have seen the same rock show multiple times, by different artists...
Whoda thunk this all goes down to the drummer...But it really kinda does...

And some drummers don't want to use a click track because they think they are completely accurate with their BPM rates.

When I saw Rush 2 weeks ago, they obviously had a clicktrack going for most songs as each one was started by Peart - all necessary because of the backing tracks, of course.

and that might be one of the reasons i don't care for RUSH. i don't necessarily wanna hear "metronomic" timekeeping. for my tastes.....that approach to time never grooves.

listen to any of the great groove drummers like Levon Helm, Ringo, Jim Keltner, Zigaboo Modeliste (Meters), any of the great drummers that played w James Brown.....ain't none of that is ever "metronomic". and some of the tunes might slow down or speed up a little. but if everyone in the band is slowing down and speeding up TOGETHER.....who gives a flying leap? i mean if ain't goin' from 90 BPM to 180 BPM????

time is a living breathing thing that needs to breathe and contract and open back up. i just don't think you can acheive that playing to click.

I suppose it depends on a number of factors . Dont be fooled though. Guys like Ringo will never tell you the tricks he uses...He just says he starts banging them... (Which is only part true)
In Jazz its critical to be impeccable and not rely on metronome. But in driving, hard rock... Sometimes it really is necessary ... The difference could be thought of like this... Jazz is like a winding road that has peaks, valleys doglegs etc... the lanes offer margin of breadth in the drive. On the other hand, heavy metal rock for example is like a railroad track with fixed ties. Ever notice that Jazz players (at large) are cool minded, and you cant tie em down to any one precise musical principle, whereas Rock players need to master the routines with brute discipline, same way, same time, every time... I never ever saw the same jazz show twice, ever... but I have seen the same rock show multiple times, by different artists...
Whoda thunk this all goes down to the drummer...But it really kinda does...

sorry p dog...i gotta disagree w most of that.

ringo's "tricks'"??? his "trick" is having great feel and groove. and that's why it never mattered that he was never a great technical player.

"critical to be impeccable and not rely on a metronome for a jazz drummer"

....not sure what you mean or where you're coming from by "relying on a metronome"....if you mean you DON'T play to a click...yep. true dat. but as far as playing w metronomic time there are plenty of drummers (Dave Weckl comes to mind) who play that way.....like i was trying to say earlier...this does not make Weckl a great drummer in my book ( tho i think he is ...in spite of his often stiff metronomic style).

there's probably a lot more great jazz drummers whose playing "breathes" more... like Art Blakey.

as far as this.... "Ever notice that Jazz players (at large) are cool minded, and you cant tie em down to any one precise musical principle, whereas Rock players need to master the routines with brute discipline, same way, same time, every time..."

sorry grant....that's a huge sweeping generalization. i've played w tons of jazzers who i would NEVER describe as "cool minded". jazzers can be just as tight assed and anal retentive as musicians from ANY genre.
yeah, some are all about taking chances and shooting from the hip....but many prefer things that are strictly mapped out (even if it doesn't SEEM so to the the audience).

playing jazz well takes tons of discipline (usually QUITE brutish!) and the mastering of routines (different routines obviously). the freedom that you see (or that you think you see) has only come from many, many hrs playing the same things the same way. again and again. if you're good and you HAVE the goods you move beyond that. no great jazzer just picks up their instrument and starts shooting from the hip and working without a net w/o first spending BIG time w the "routines"

"and you cant tie em down to any one precise musical principle,"

we must travel in different circles cos there's plenty of "precise musical principles" my jazz playing cohorts and i all agree on. playing in tune... playing w a good feel....good tone....not bogarting the show, being good supportive players for each other, agreement on which notes are to be found within an EbMaj7th chord, the fact that Bb has two flats in it, the key of A has three sharps, etc, etc.


as for shows being different and solos being different, rhythm sections approaching the same tunes differently yeah...that is the goal and good players routinely pull that off as part of the language.

get a bunch of great musicians together but the drummer ain't happenin'....you ain't got much.

but get some average musicians w a great drummer....a great drummer can make 'em sound really good.

Isn't it true though that in traditional Jazz, the Bass guitar holds down the meter the meter?

nah...everyone is responsible for good time. as to "holding it down" (time) i'd still say the drummer is in charge.

a lot of folks mistakenly think that's cos the drummer can be the loudest but it's cos of the way drummers subdivide time.

if the bass player is walking a 4/4 line w quarter notes or playing w a "two feel" and the drummer is playing smaller notes like 1/8ths or 1/16th notes on his ride or hi-hat....then the drummer "owns the time" and sets tempo because those shorter notes define the time more clearly and authoritatively.

After 376 posts he finally says something in the realm of reality.

After 376 posts he finally says something in the realm of reality.

and whut..you're not gonna thank me for not using any big words?

hey glen look at that...there ARE some things we can agree on!

After 376 posts he finally says something in the realm of reality.

and whut..you're not gonna thank me for not using any big words?

hey glen look at that...there ARE some things we can agree on!

You guys have me to thank

BTW PG, Everything you posted in response,,, is pretty much saying the same thing I'm saying...but you had to go the long route. (Dang Jazz players!)

After 376 posts he finally says something in the realm of reality.

and whut..you're not gonna thank me for not using any big words?

hey glen look at that...there ARE some things we can agree on!

You guys have me to thank

BTW PG, Everything you posted in response,,, is pretty much saying the same thing I'm saying...but you had to go the long route. (Dang Jazz players!)

"You guys have me to thank "

or ...to BLAME!

we're sayin' the SAME thing??? uh, i hardly think so, mr lazy bones.

ok dog...you don't get to skate THAT easy. ok...let's make it easy for ya. at least elobaratize a little bit on the 'tricks' you believe Ringo uses.

After 376 posts he finally says something in the realm of reality.

and whut..you're not gonna thank me for not using any big words?

hey glen look at that...there ARE some things we can agree on!

You guys have me to thank

BTW PG, Everything you posted in response,,, is pretty much saying the same thing I'm saying...but you had to go the long route. (Dang Jazz players!)

"You guys have me to thank "

or ...to BLAME!

we're sayin' the SAME thing??? uh, i hardly think so, mr lazy bones.

ok dog...you don't get to skate THAT easy. ok...let's make it easy for ya. at least elobaratize a little bit on the 'tricks' you believe Ringo uses.

Ok , One of Ringo's tricks is Grecian Formula... Ha! But seriously, He has, up to this day, undeniably stuck to simple meters, simple patterns and that's his secret in a nutshell... Compare his work to say that of Dream Theater's drumming and you'll see whut I mean.

Some of What separates his work from others, might also have to do with how he ques into and out of a phrase in a song If everybody else always came in on '2', you can bet yer dollars he'd come in on 3, and so on. If you expect a down beat, he'll throw you to up beat and so on.

I suspect that early on, George Martin was very keen on insisting that the drum kits always stay properly tuned... Why was that important...? Just listen to anything on Abby Road... and how well his drum sound binds to the tonal qualities of the songs. Yeah you could say it was in the mix, but you cant mix in 'resonation' with most listerners.

Its my take anyhoot...