General Music Chat

YOD, what you say makes sense.

However thru the years I have been in original bands and we didnt ever make any money like you say from selling Albums, Cassetes or CDs. You tend to wind up discounting them to a cost basis.

I know this is just basic business discipline, but in my case it never really made us the money you speak of. Of course Im sure all those bands the main problem was the music sucked!

In the end, whether you do covers or originals there has to be someone that wants what you deliver either live or on cds, if thats not happening then you need to go back to the drawing board.

YOD, what you say makes sense.

However thru the years I have been in original bands and we didnt ever make any money like you say from selling Albums, Cassetes or CDs. You tend to wind up discounting them to a cost basis.

I know this is just basic business discipline, but in my case it never really made us the money you speak of. Of course Im sure all those bands the main problem was the music sucked!

In the end, whether you do covers or originals there has to be someone that wants what you deliver either live or on cds, if thats not happening then you need to go back to the drawing board.

+1
I have known 100 bands over the years who sold music at shows and nobody ever made enough to cover their production costs. Some of these were very successful acts with tours of the USA, Europe, Asia and South America including Stryper, Bloodgood, The Riverdogs, Austin Law, Thunder Road, and many others. I am sure it is possible but I have just never seen it done. Tee shirts you can sell and make money because people like em and production costs are low. Music CDs not so much.

well, an indie shouldn't spend more than 15k tops producing something. It can be done for much cheaper recorded live. It does have to be something that is unique and "you" though. Otherwise they can get it better somewhere else.

But don't people still buy some music? Why not yours?

Selling CDs is at least half my income. Don't have much problem selling CDs, but t-shirts are a major hassle. They weigh too much to ship, they take up too much room in the van, and whatever sizes you don't have are what someone is going to ask for. I carry them on a driving tour but they are not really worth the trouble, if you ask me.

The real reason why you should have CDs is because that is the difference between a band that plays bars until they fall apart and a recording artist that management or labels would want to sign.

Sales of only 5,000-10,000 in a year would make lots of money for an indie artist, and it's not that hard to do even better if you tour. I know of 2 christian bands ("By the Tree" and "Bliss" who became "The Afters" once they signed) that sold 30,000 in Dallas without leaving town. They were courted by record labels and still touring, though it has been 15 years now. Pantera did less than that (vinyl) in their glam phase, but it was enough to get attention and the rest is history.

If you do an entertaining show, there should be at least 25% of the audience who wants a souvineer to take home. One thing is certain...no one will buy a CD that doesn't exist. If you have something you are proud of, it's only a matter of making sure everyone knows about it and then being the rocker you know that you are.

Don't discount them too much though because it makes people think that you believe they are cheap/worthless. It's better to give them away free as "special gifts" to a limited amount of people....like DJs or dance prizes.

Supply & Demand.

This board continues to mystify me. So many right-wing conservatives are on here, and yet complaining when the free market system works exactly as designed This is exactly, precisely how capitalism works people. Those of you championing right-win agendas this electoral season - this is a core part of what you're voting for.

I mean, I understand the argument in that Facebook post - if you expect bands to "bring people" then you don't understand what you're entertainment is supposed to do for your bar. You, as a bar owner, simply don't understand how the system works.

At the same time, the other part of this equation is - there are more people willing to play than venues available to play, so of course club and bar owners don't have to pony up. Of course, they're at the whim of the quality of the entertainment they get, and generally you get what you pay for, but that's part of the economics of free enterprise.

Supply & Demand.

This board continues to mystify me. So many right-wing conservatives are on here, and yet complaining when the free market system works exactly as designed This is exactly, precisely how capitalism works people. Those of you championing right-win agendas this electoral season - this is a core part of what you're voting for.

I mean, I understand the argument in that Facebook post - if you expect bands to "bring people" then you don't understand what you're entertainment is supposed to do for your bar. You, as a bar owner, simply don't understand how the system works.

At the same time, the other part of this equation is - there are more people willing to play than venues available to play, so of course club and bar owners don't have to pony up. Of course, they're at the whim of the quality of the entertainment they get, and generally you get what you pay for, but that's part of the economics of free enterprise.

Okay, I'll bite...

In an Ideal market, every band has a job gigging, every club makes some money from the band (cause every band has a following) and every patron has a designated driver, so we can pound away drinks all night, and every band member gets a righteous sum of money at the end of the night.

However...We don't live in a world that supports Ideal markets... The factors which make ideal markets turn un-Ideal include:
1) Greedy Club-owners
2) Delusional /untalented musicians
3) Perpetual hangovers/Drugs/ and anything else to distract folks from a plan of success.

I said this before in a different posting...I'll repeat it here. A Band's job in the club is to make and keep people thirsty... That's done by making them dance their butts off, or making them work in the act itself (Audience participation) ...Whatever method... most club owners dont care whether your music is good or not...If it works for the drinks , that's all that matters.

You say there are more bands than there are venues...Ok, agreed...So, guess who gets the gigs? Its the bands that keep the patrons thirsty. Its not the bands who rub elbows with Pink Floyd and who produce awesome concept albums... (Those guys are sought out buy real -ticket makers..and suddenly, clubs can just kiss their asses...)

Bar owners want the band who will work the cheapest and keep people in the bar buying drinks.

Those scumbags don't give a rip about how you sound if it sells beer. They don't care how good you are if it costs them more than they want to pay either. If you're going to play bars, then you need to be able to survive charging less than the next band. Like Christopher said...supply and demand.

When I was 17, my band had a house gig playing 6 nights a week and we were awful...but we packed 'em in like no one else could because on our own music, you couldn't tell that we weren't that good. There was nothing to compare us with.

We went to a 3 piece in the 80s to pull that off. We were better than any band who would play for $250 and sold (vinyl) records to augment that. We had a comedy routine to get people to put money in the tip jar. Whatever it took.

As it turns out, all 3 of us were locksmiths and if we felt like the bar owner was not being fair, we'd hit the machines and pool tables before we left. Not proud of that now, but I still don't feel sorry for the bar owners.

Like I said....we would do whatever it took to survive the bars and keep playing.

But I've known a lot of successful bands/artists. The thing they all had in common was (a) their own music for sale (b) their own style.

I know of only a couple of people who have been able to sustain a living playing bars. They wore themselves out and are practically worthless human beings in their old age.

I grew up at the bar, and I damn sure don't want
to spend the rest of my life performing in the bars.
There's lots of places to play besides the bars, and
the crowds are scuddier in the bars, I know I often
wasn't on my best behavior in them. You talk about
playing in a bar for $300 a nite, we didn't do that in
1980.

I think a CD would be necessary, and I love T-shirts,
properly designed they would sell.

I think if you limit yourself to only playing in the bars,
you're bound to fail. Think about it, there is alot of different
places and ways and means to play your music and
get it out there. Phukk them bars.

There is one silver lining in the cloud of evil club owners... If you express the willingness to work for only free-ninety free, and if yo can make noise with a beat, then depending on the club owner, you got a built in place to practice...

This post is about club work which I fugure is bars.

YOD I would love to read your post on how to make more money.

I had 3500 cds made a couple of years ago, we tryed to sell them for 5 bucks, we made them outself and I found a deal where this guy made the copys with the cds for .29 cents a piece. They werent selling for what ever reason, we just made a decision to give them away to promote the band. I have maybe 500 of them at this point.

We sold t-shirts, beer huggys, medallions, all sorts of stuff with our logo on them, I cant say if we really made any money on all of that, and I know it was a discipline problem on accounting for what was sold, what was given away, dealing with cash has its own pitfalls.

At this point I know Im just a bar room player, Im not trying to make a living at it, but when we do play in a bar we make more money than the average bands in my area, why do we get that? I guess cause we have some sort of special appeal, plus we do have a fan base that wants to see us. We are 95% covers, but still get requests for originals weve done thru the years.

I cant say Ive been successful when it comes to selling cds or merch, really the opposite, but I have tryed, and when I comment on here I just comment on the things Ive experienced and know to be true in the trenchs.

Yod,
I don't think anyone suggested you can't make money selling CDs. You are proof that it is possible. You are also extremely rare. For every performer like you who actually makes a profit on music sales there are 10,000 bands who spent a ton of money on production and printing of mediocre music that has no audience, and cases of their unwanted CDs are stacked in a closet somewhere. Without at least 1000 regular fans, producing CDs is a huge business risk.

Paperdog,
I don't think most club owners are inherently evil (aside from a few I knew in Hollyweird who preyed on teenage girls). Most are just regular Joes with a big dose of ego, trying to make a living like the rest of us in their chosen profession. Some are better than others, some smarter than others, some get it right, and all of them make mistakes just like we do.

If we generate a good relationship with a club owner, we will get our asking price for regular shows over many years and both will make money. If they want us to bring in 25 people or pay to play, they will have to live without the pleasure of our company. We have no interest in playing in a dead club. No harm, no foul.

So true Johnny7. I would advise most bands to just press a small quantity of Cds or even DIY, but the price difference between 300 and 1,000 is not much so most people get the larger amount and end up giving them away (or storing them on a shelf).

Anyone who expects or desires to make money in this business is simply delusional and setting themselves up for massive disappointment.

If you aren't playing because you love it, then you're never going to be happy. Because you won't make money as a working musician in the USA (different story in the UK).

The only way to make money as a musician in America is to write your own music and make hits - get signed to a major record deal. That's it. Or, possibly, be a writer for country stars and other pop performers who can't (and don't know how) to write their own stuff.

If you're a regular Joe working musician then you aren't going to make money. All you can do is break even on gas and gear.

Play for the love of music and playing.

I think, for us regular guys, if we're playing out we're doing all right. Too many of us are sitting at home in our basements practicing or jamming. Just getting out and playing is a big deal.

Anyone who expects or desires to make money in this business is simply delusional and setting themselves up for massive disappointment.

If you aren't playing because you love it, then you're never going to be happy. Because you won't make money as a working musician in the USA (different story in the UK).

The only way to make money as a musician in America is to write your own music and make hits - get signed to a major record deal. That's it. Or, possibly, be a writer for country stars and other pop performers who can't (and don't know how) to write their own stuff.

If you're a regular Joe working musician then you aren't going to make money. All you can do is break even on gas and gear.

Play for the love of music and playing.

I think, for us regular guys, if we're playing out we're doing all right. Too many of us are sitting at home in our basements practicing or jamming. Just getting out and playing is a big deal.

That's where I'm at man. But luckily I have a job. But we'll play for free at BBQ's and biker rallys and anything else of that nature. Way I figure is if we're good enough, the money will come. I want people to like our music first and foremost. I'm not looking for a record deal.

They'll have to come find me.

Anyone who expects or desires to make money in this business is simply delusional and setting themselves up for massive disappointment.

Except...

I know musicians who are making very good money at it. At least one band I know they are making enough money to be a significant part of their income. I know of one other local band that the members do nothing else and the band is how they make their living (although I don't know them personally).

I personally have never managed to be a part of one of those bands. What all of them have in common is that all of the members are good musicians with a commitment to being professional and entertaining. Beyond that, they're all over the map.

So, conclusions? I dunno. It's possible, just unlikely.

well it really is relative isn't it,

my daughter is a vocal performance major out of BU
now works as music teacher and is paid regularly at various opera companies in NY as well as other classical venues.
her husband is finishing his doctorate in music at Rutgers,
I wouldn't say they are wealthy but they both make their living in music.
my wife's uncle is a has his PHD in music and has never held any other type of job. he is 84 now.


beyond that there is quite a bit of people making a great deal of money in music

but if you are talking about making a living in rock music that is 20 to 30 years past it's prime, well that will probably be pretty tough.

it really depends on what you are willing to do.