General Music Chat

Yep, there was plenty of incentive in native american tribes. They also actively traded in forms of money: Beads, shells, rare stones, gold, furs, tools etc. If you brought home the biggest game you ate first. If you consistently brought home the biggest game you had high status in the tribe and also got the best chicks. There were plenty of less motivated native americans also who ate last, lived more simply and were less motivated to better their lot. After all, hunting game was hard work and it was cold outside in December.

Money is simply a modern tool to buy the things all people want: A place to live, a good meal, winter clothing, a nice new bow and arrow set, tobacco, whatever. It is no different today than it was 10,000 years ago. Just the tools have changed.

Your father had security in the Navy. They would look out for him. He could focus his attention on other things besides putting food on the table. His incentive wasn’t about making more money. He wanted to improve himself and change his environment. He had the opportunity and took it. A lot of people never get the opportunity.

Well actually my father chose to join the armed forces because it was better than being homeless or hungry. He was willing to trade sweat equity and the chance he might be killed under fire for 3 hots and a cot, and the chance for a better life. He also chose to study during time off while his buddies were horsing around, drinking beer and smoking.

Who in this country does not have the opportunity to join the armed forces or civil service in order to lift themselves up? We all make choices every day and we are essentially products of the choices and personal sacrifices we make.

“I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.” - Thomas Jefferson

Well actually my father chose to join the armed forces because it was better than being homeless or hungry.

So, you are saying his choices were limited by circumstances, correct?

He was willing to trade sweat equity and the chance he might be killed under fire for 3 hots and a cot, and the chance for a better life. He also chose to study during time off while his buddies were horsing around, drinking beer and smoking.

He didn’t choose to be CEO of General Motors right there? Why not?

Who in this country does not have the opportunity to join the armed forces or civil service in order to lift themselves up?

Uh, the disabled, the mentally ill, people with just flat feet and a million other reasons. We don’t draft the homeless. But, WHY should a person be forced into a position where killing people for a living becomes their best or only option?

We all make choices every day and we are essentially products of the choices and personal sacrifices we make.

But, those choices are limited by options available to us. I can’t choose to be Superman.

Don’t even get me started on Thomas Jefferson. Yeah, he sure worked hard buying slaves to do everything for him.

Yes we all play the hand we are dealt. You don't need a royal flush every hand to play well. Some simply play better than others. Personally I would never want to be the GM CEO. Way too much stress. You??

http://federaljobs.net/disabled.htm

Yes Thomas Jefferson had slaves. It was wrong but it was an accepted practice during those times. Andrew Jackson (father of the Democratic Party) also had slaves. Jackson was also principally responsible for the Trail of Tears that ripped native americans (my ancestors) from their homes and dumped them in Oklahoma reservations. Water long under the bridge now for me. You??

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on all this. I am totally ok with that. One of the great opportunities in this country is the ability to freely speak our minds. In China if you publicly speak out against the govt. you simply disappear forever.

Yes we all play the hand we are dealt. You don't need a royal flush every hand to play well. Some simply play better than others.

Some of us are dealing from the bottom of the deck. Sometimes the deck is stacked against us.

Jackson was also principally responsible for the Trail of Tears that ripped native americans (my ancestors) from their homes and dumped them in Oklahoma reservations. Water long under the bridge now for me. You??

Well, being part Cherokee myself, I can understand people holding a grudge. But, like I told a guy once (a drunken Blackfoot who insisted that all THIS land is HIS) those people are dead. Before our time. This is now.

I guess we will simply have to disagree on all this. I am totally ok with that. One of the great opportunities in this country is the ability to freely speak our minds.

Yes. Good. And, yes.

In China if you publicly speak out against the govt. you simply disappear forever.

I told you guys people assume I’m a Commie, didn’t I?

Not to sound disrespectful, but I though the whole " noble red man " thing was;
Nobody can own the land it was here before us it will be here when we are gone. How do you own that ??

Pretty bright when you think about it.


Me ... like I said before, I am waiting on those damn romans to return me my Black Forest


When they do you are all invited to one hell of a party.

I'm trying very hard not to let this thread lure me in. I've already deleted one post because I thought it was going to start a war. But I have to say something or my head is going to explode.

STAR TREK IS A MOVIE!

There. I said it.

I'm trying very hard not to let this thread lure me in. I've already deleted one post because I thought it was going to start a war. But I have to say something or my head is going to explode.

STAR TREK IS A MOVIE!

There. I said it.

TV show. The movies came later.

And movies my dear Jams represents the ideals and beliefs of its writers. Adolf Hitler became the man he was based on written political literature (not a fiction story mind you), but literature representing ideals that people wanted to see come about. He was also inspired by a lot of the mystical literature of the time as well, even going so far as to steal a Tibetan and Hindu symbol representing the four elements and turn it into one of evil. So fiction can turn real very quick in the hands of the right or wrong person.

I know, I'm a writer who puts my own ideals in my stories because I write science fiction / fantasy. Look at Brave New World by Aldus Huxley. Funny how a number of occurrences in his book written in the 30s has come to pass. Could he see the future or were some scientists simply inspired by his writings.

Don't laugh, the ideals of Star Trek could become very real one day.

Chaeya

I respectfully disagree. The ideals of Star Trek were never given detail, just broad generalizations about what the author wanted. All the dialectical tensions in that T.V. show ( ) were brushed over with an it's a mystery how this works brush.

People are incapable of the ideals presented in that movie because real life people are inherantly selfish, and in real life, value is more than currency - it encompasses everything from personal taste to how accessible it is. Ever stand in line and wish you were at the front of it? Ever own something you parents gave to you that you wouldn't part with even tho it's as common as a pocket watch? Value transcends currency. Currency is just one of its forms.

Breed a society that can think of others before himself, and maybe change our dimension into one where everything is equi-distant ; add to that dimension some Ferengi, and I'll start considering the the theory as viable for us humans - as it stands, there's nothing new under the sun - it's all been tried, and I don't see a better world because of it.

Cheers!

And movies my dear Jams represents the ideals and beliefs of its writers. Adolf Hitler became the man he was based on written political literature (not a fiction story mind you), but literature representing ideals that people wanted to see come about. He was also inspired by a lot of the mystical literature of the time as well, even going so far as to steal a Tibetan and Hindu symbol representing the four elements and turn it into one of evil. So fiction can turn real very quick in the hands of the right or wrong person.

I know, I'm a writer who puts my own ideals in my stories because I write science fiction / fantasy. Look at Brave New World by Aldus Huxley. Funny how a number of occurrences in his book written in the 30s has come to pass. Could he see the future or were some scientists simply inspired by his writings.

Don't laugh, the ideals of Star Trek could become very real one day.

Chaeya

To quote William Shatner at a Star Trek convention 20 years after the last episode aired:

"People... get a life!"

I have to say that lately with the state the world is in it's been hard to imagine this society surviving. We just don't seem to be getting "it".

But I'm a Utopian at heart and I'd love nothing more than to see mankind evolve into a race that could develop a "Star Trek" kind of society. But it really remains to be seen if we could find the heart to pull it off.

We'd have to change our stance on education and start educating the masses to a fuller extent. That and a million other things and we'd be there.
But we'd have to start getting accurate information to the masses first because right now we're just being taken for a ride with the information we're getting and we need to change the minds of half the population to allow us to make the changes we'd need to to start the process that would lead us to utopia......

But thanks Mike for getting me thinking about it....

Oh, by the way - I'm not knocking Star Trek for those of you who are Trekkies (like myself). I don't think there's an episode I haven't seen! Every day after school I would come home to watch the original series - loved I, Mudd and all his robotic maids

Something in that show that always bothered me tho - people got sick, injured, etc. Here's an advanced people who have mastered "beaming" people up - dis-assembling people and re-assembling people, moving objects around - yet they can't isolate injuries, virus', etc. to reassemble the body or beam out the virus. Go figure. Well, it's just a show - they can't reconcile everything

I respectfully disagree. The ideals of Star Trek were never given detail, just broad generalizations about what the author wanted. All the dialectical tensions in that T.V. show ( ) were brushed over with an it's a mystery how this works brush.

Au contraire, mon frère. The show, despite being the product of thousands of people, does outline a coherent vision presented by one man.

People are incapable of the ideals presented in that movie because real life people are inherently selfish

I’ll remember to pass that along to volunteers who feed homeless people, firefighters who save burning children, etc.
People are inherently EVERYTHING. Any kind of behavior imaginable, somebody’s done it. But, there’s always a reason.

, and in real life, value is more than currency - it encompasses everything from personal taste to how accessible it is. Ever stand in line and wish you were at the front of it? Ever own something you parents gave to you that you wouldn't part with even tho it's as common as a pocket watch? Value transcends currency.

Therein is what I’m talking about. Eliminate false currency. It’s an illusion of wealth. People should value something for its own sake.

- as it stands, there's nothing new under the sun - it's all been tried, and I don't see a better world because of it.

Nothing new? In spite of recurring themes through history, I’d say we’re better off than folks in the middle ages. Human behavior still has the same dynamics it always had. But, the emphasis changed. Progress was made.
“We have to face the fact that either all of us are going to die together or we are going to learn to live together and if we are to live together we have to talk.”
- Eleanor Roosevelt

I'm not too sure about utopia. I was just talking about economics.