General Music Chat

Take the eye for example; eyes have evolved at least 11 different times in the course of evolution. If there was a designer, wouldn't he/she have engineered them one time and given them to all creatures who needed to see?

Evolution is a process of growth and change. It is God's method of creation. It is not really any different than the fact that a child takes 9 months to fully develop before birth, from the fetal stage onward. God designed the physical cosmos to exist in "time" and "space", whereas spiritually, there is not the same state of being, as physically. Spiritually, if you THINK something, you have in effect created it. Compare it to your imagination. To PHYSICALLY travel to Europe from America, it takes a number of hours, even on a plane. But I can THINK of Europe and IMAGINE traveling through it, and I am THERE (in my mind) instantly.

God created the physical world with such restraints purposefully.

As I suggested before, the physical world is a NURSERY for developing the souls of his children. The restraints of time and space, are not very different than the bars of a crib. They protect us to some degree, by restraining us to a confined space. Once fully matured, we can be trusted to graduate past the bars, and travel in a broader world. And here, we are also alooted time to grow spiritually, so that our own bars (time and space) will no longer be necessary, and we can handle, spiritual life, without restraints.

As we grow and develop our hearts, we will live our lives here, then shed our physical bodies, and return to the source of love, God, living a purely, and COMPLETELY spiritual existence.

There is no conflict, with God creating over TIME, and allowing things to develop and even change, as their environment changes. This does not contradict the notion of intelligence, any more than the fact that a baby takes 9 months to develop and grow, rather than being formed INSTANTLY upon conception, already complete. Children are not formed COMPLETE and without the need for changes, and neither are butterflies, or the physical universe we all dwell within.

.

And I just keep working for,


Another day in Paradise !!!

You just have to keep believing !

According to the bible Craig hell is literal and permanent.

Hell is NOT a literal physical place.

That's not what the bible teaches, Craig. You've latched onto something unscriptural. It's a terrifying doctrine, but it is the stance of the Christian Church, and has been through the centuries. Read the Westminser Confession of Faith, or the Heidelburg confession.

There is no conflict, with God creating over TIME, and allowing things to develop and even change, as their environment changes. This does not contradict the notion of intelligence, any more than the fact that a baby takes 9 months to develop and grow, rather than being formed INSTANTLY upon conception, already complete. Children are not formed COMPLETE and without the need for changes, and neither are butterflies, or the physical universe we all dwell within.

According to the Bible, the act of creation was a literal 6 days. A simple exercise in proper exegesis (NOT isogesis...) should make it obvious that the Bible means to convey a literal 6 days. So there is a conflict if by creating over time you mean "created the world out of nothing in the space of [ anything more than a literal 6 days].


You can either believe the biblical account on its own terms, or you can reject it.

The point at which you start re-defining God's words to mean what you want them to mean, because you think you have contrary evidence to the Bible's account, is the point at which you call God a liar and are on dangerous ground, theologically.

regards.
chris

I put no limitations on the power of my God in His universe.
Nor do I entertain any concept of our ability to understand His creation.
We oft consider our science and knowlege vast.
It is but foolish ranting of dust.

The bible also says the devil has been destroyed, but a lot of people still think he exists; even blame all of their wrong doings and problems on him... Go figure...

Heb 2:14,15

Any thoughts?

That passage appears to me to mean that Jesus came to destroy Satan. Satan will be in hell. That's the way he will be destroyed. He wants to take as many people with him as he can.

I put no limitations on the power of my God in His universe.
Nor do I entertain any concept of our ability to understand His creation.
We oft consider our science and knowlege vast.
It is but foolish ranting of dust.

Yes

Some scriptures that are profound to me.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Craig you type and type and type and it is so hard to make myself read it all.

That's a shame.

But if I were in your position, I probably wouldn't either.

God is not the author of confusion.

You're right. He isn't. And there is nothing confusing about the things I post either. But as clearly as God may put something, someone may still be confused by it. Spiritual things, while simple, can very well be confusing to people who are not spiritually inclined. And even people who claim to be spiritual, get confused quite often. If they didn't, I would doubt there would be over 1000 different denominations of Christianity. Are you prepared to say they are all confused (except your own brand of course) and doing the work of satan? I'm not.

Therefore anybody can read his will and know what it takes to be with him in heaven.

No sir, not "anybody".

Some people are illiterate. Africa and India hold huge populations of illiterate people. The Muslim world is right up there too, with about 1/3 of all Muslim men, and 2/3 of all Muslim women being illiterate. Then there are others who are blind, and may not have ever had the opportunity to learn Braille. Are you really going to tell me, that these people are all doomed to hell, due to illiteracy? God expects people to be literate to have a relationship with Him? Or they are doomed to an eternity of being burned for eternity, without actually burning up?

You don't need science. He wants all to come to him. If we don't we will not be with God eternally.

Well, first off, it's odd that we don't need science, but WE DO need to be literate and learn a written language to be saved from the fires of hell. I suppose God wants us only slightly informed, but not too much? Somewhere kind of in the middle?

I agree with you that He wants us all to come to Him. In fact, He loves us so much, we don't even need to come to Him. He comes to us. We just need to open our hearts and let Him inside. And I also agree that if we don't allow His love inside, then we ARE doomed to a life apart from Him, that is... IF we died in that state. And it will be an eternal separation, but not for the reasons you suppose. It is because dying WITHOUT oneness with God, means we cease to exist. Atheists are right on this part. But only for those who do not become one with God's love. We have no ability to maintain our existence for eternity. However God, IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN eternal. When His love comes into our being, making us one with Him, this is what guarantees our eternal nature. Because it is HIS NATURE and NOT OURS that is eternal. The Bible promises us that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. It can promise us this, because once we are ONE with the love of God, we are ONE with God Himself, we share in His eternal nature, no beginning and no end.

The bible clearly states that "in a twinkling of an eye" we will stand before God and be judged, that it is permanent, that we will be rewarded or punished eternally.

In a twinkling of an eye, because the STATE we die in, already determines out fate. If God is in us, we will be a part of Him and His love, eternally. Immediately. If however, God is NOT in our hearts, then we cease to exist. There is nothing there keeping us alive. We lived a life of flesh, outside of God's love, and to dust we return. It is considered an ETERNAL fate, or even punishment of sorts, because it is UNCHANGEABLE. THAT is how it is eternal. Because it is UNACHANGEABLE. If we die in a state of separation with God, we will ETERNALLY, or UNCHANGEABLY remain separated from Him. We return to dust, physical to physical. We cease to exist, we will not reincarnate or have any other opportunities. We had the choice to embrace our spiritual nature or reject it. In rejecting it, we have the fate we CHOSE for ourselves. A physical one. We die. We cease to exist.

But God is not some weird turturing executioner that keeps souls alive merely for the purpose of toruring them. What parent would do that? Would you? You still refuse to answer this.

.

I'm an atheist. My only problem with that is the fact that most of the atheists I see in the media (hello Bill Maher) I find to be judgmental, self righteous, condescending so and sos.

Some people are illiterate. Africa and India hold huge populations of illiterate people. The Muslim world is right up there too, with about 1/3 of all Muslim men, and 2/3 of all Muslim women being illiterate. Then there are others who are blind, and may not have ever had the opportunity to learn Braille. Are you really going to tell me, that these people are all doomed to hell, due to illiteracy? God expects people to be literate to have a relationship with Him? Or they are doomed to an eternity of being burned for eternity, without actually burning up?

First off, we are not the judge therefore I cannot tell you of their fate.
Secondly, this is the whole point behind our GREAT COMMISSION given to us by Christ beore his crucifiction.
To go forth teaching all men. (paraphrased of course)

Yes, we are our brothers keepers.

That passage appears to me to mean that Jesus came to destroy Satan. Satan will be in hell. That's the way he will be destroyed. He wants to take as many people with him as he can.

Thanks for the thoughts Paul. I'm expanding a little on my previous post, realizing that I posted incomplete verse for my point:

Heb 2:9-15

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of bone: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I understand what you were saying earlier Paul. The way that I read this, though, through the death that Jesus suffered (described in verses 9 and 10), he destroyed "him that had the power of death, that is the devil," and thereby offers deliverence to "them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (described in verses 14 and 15)

Again, just the way I read it. I even saw it this way when I claimed to be Christian. I'm not saying I'm right or you're right -- there's really no way to know except to wait and see!

That being said, help me understand: How could this be the way it is going to happen when the bible says it has already happened?

LOL

Jesus won the battle. The war ends at ARMEGEDDON !!

Another shameless song plug from the boys at NKF.

No sir, not "anybody".

Some people are illiterate. Africa and India hold huge populations of illiterate people. The Muslim world is right up there too, with about 1/3 of all Muslim men, and 2/3 of all Muslim women being illiterate. Then there are others who are blind, and may not have ever had the opportunity to learn Braille. Are you really going to tell me, that these people are all doomed to hell, due to illiteracy? God expects people to be literate to have a relationship with Him? Or they are doomed to an eternity of being burned for eternity, without actually burning up?

Even if you hold to Annihilation (which is not a biblical principle) as a form of punishment, and believe that those who have never heard the gospel are therefore immune to eternal separation from God, you create an internal conflict in God's Word.

premise 1. Those who never hear the gospel will not perish.
premise 2. Those who hear the gospel and reject it will perish.

therefore: It would be better that no one heard the gospel, since premise 1 guarantees salvation, but premise 2 does not.

The conflict is this: if Premise 1 is true, and God commands us to preach the gospel to all nations, are we to conclude then that God's command is immoral since it would expose His saved to potential separation from God? That does not square with how God views his relationship with His people. In fact, God condemns those who puts a stumbling block between God and His people.

-------------------------------------
A view that does not cause this
internal conflict in scripture is this
------------------------------------
All men, including those stuck on Gilligan's Island prior to hearing the gospel, are by virtue of being Adam's offspring, cursed at his fall.

Unless we are adopted by Christ, and therefore come under His headship, we will perish. Hence the necessity of the command to go throughout the world and preach the gospel.

For Christians concerned about infants who have not heard the gospel, they are covered by virtue of their Christian parent's headship, which is under Christ, until that point at which they are able to discern the body of Christ, and God forbid, reject it.

regards,
Chris