General Music Chat

Hey all you guitar nuts.. I have some in-depth questions about soloing mostly-

I've been downloading and using "jam tracks" in various keys, many of which are labeled properly, like "Blues Jam in A" or "slow jam in A, Harmonic Minor" etc...

Then I'd go look up the scales, or modes, and start farting around.

I Learned Aeolian, Ionian, Phrygian, dorian, etc...

First question:
(may be wrong on the exact modes and keys, but just using this as an example)..
I was playing something on the Ionian in the Key of A, and then moved onto something that used the Aeolian in the key of E. What I discovered was that the "pattern" was exactly the same, minus neck position. Are the modes just the same patterns placed on different parts of the neck, and appropriated for starting on different strings? I'm kinda confused where modes differ from actual scales.

Second question:
I've stuck with Jam tracks that tell me which mode/key to play in, so all I've had to do is look up the scales and start wanking. I still am missing the link between KNOWING what mode to play on any given song.

So, for instance, something is in the key of A. How would I know to play the A dorian, or the A Major, or A Minor Harmonic scale/mode? I see guys who just start jamming away on the fly and nail the right mode every time. I can make the obvious deduction that if the 'main' note is Am, then I will probably end up using a scale with minors, but many of these 'jam tracks' I've come across are just "moods" with pretty basic chords, but when I try to use a different mode or scale than what is suggested, it just doesn't fit. Some notes sound sour.

Sorry if this got long. I'm sure I have more questions, but will probably base them off whatever answers anyone here can provide.

I know this will sound crazy Kramer, but my old teacher told me one time to play whatever I thought and felt sounded good. He said there are 12 notes and at least 9 of the notes you play are in key no matter what you do so let it rip and if it sounds bad move a halfstep either way. You have a 75% chance of being in the right key no matter what you do.

I learned a lot of basic positions in each key, modes never made a lot of sense to me, but I have some instructional videos that i use and watch to find new interesting positions.

All I can say is go with the flow.

I always considered myself a basic blues based guitarist, but this past weekend we did a gig where I was cut loose to really stretch some songs out and solo my heart out. A couple of guitarist there commented afterwards that they didnt know I could shred like that, so I guess maybe Im a shredder too. It was fun but I really dont like to overdo solos in the environment I play in.

Not being a lead player, but having some sense of your question & theory, etc., all I can say in response is to use whatever position you are in at the time you start your lead. If you're in A minor, sometimes it's best to use the relative F# major position, & verse visa. Use whatever works from the starting point. If you're not playing until the lead starts, then I'd say to just "go with the flow," as JW said.

I've seen some players who get so tangled up in musical knowledge that they can't really play without sitting down & analyzing every little note. That's no way to go, imo. The feel must be there, & sometimes "just doing it" will give the best results.

JW said it right.

If it sounds good, you're fine. A lot of those keys and different type scales are to utilize IF you think that's they way it should go.

Your first question about similar scale patterns? yes and no.

Some scales are meant to be slideable, thus you can use them at any hand position 1 to 5.

Some, on the other hand are only correct in one position on the fretboard.

The modes are like tinting and color. E major=blue Em= darker sounding blue etc.

If you are using a 1-4-5, you take your tonic note say E and that is your 1. count up.. 4 is A and 5 is B. Modes will just color your 1-4-5 slightly and add drama or whatever, depending on what you want it to sound like.

Same thing when you change the framework. Playing a 1-5-1-7-9.. start with tonic note, calculate where it is you might be going.. 1=e 5=b 7=d 9=f and then use the modes you know to see what you think sounds the best.

Bottom line is if it doesn't sound good to you, it's worthless.

And do not forget your passing notes..they make the sour stuff slightly better sounding.

I think where my debacle comes into play is that I have been playing what sounds good to me for a year or so since I took on soloing as an active effort. I was primarily a rhythm guitarist who always shrank away in intimidation from soloing.

Once that I got my feet wet and developed a decent legato and mastered the pentatonic scale (lol), I started looking for more feeling and stuff. I 'Felt" my way around songs that I was writing and found scales that worked, using majors and minors as necessary, for what my limited knowledge could accept.

But I've been tooling around and have found that I only knew the tip of the iceburg. Playing a great solo using the phrygian dominant scale, for instance, I was able to lay down a fantastic sounding solo on the fly with no sour notes. It sounds cool as hell.

I also found that a song I wrote a couple of short fills for (original song a friend wrote) turned out to be the ionian scale/mode, and was perfect for that song, although, rather than tooling around for 2 days to find the right notes, I could have nailed it "on the fly" had I know that scale and it's use prior to that event.

I just feel like I'm at the doorstep of a great deal of improvement and am very hazy on some of the missing links to piece it all together. That's why I was looking for more insights on this stuff.

I will try and upload a couple of demos later tonight, with the new techniques and see what you guys think.

Hey Capt'n. A good question for you is: how do you know? Like you said Emaj for blue and Em for dark blue.

I found the ionian scale to be "happy" sounding, so I figure I could apply it to happy music, but it's not just that easy, is it? Are there specific pre-conditions for using certain modes, like can I only use a dorian of the song is in a major key, and not if it's in a minor key?

Kramer, check out Ted Green's Single Note Soloing book. I think you'd enjoy it.

your q's suggest u r on the right path to begin with... good for you.

q1... yes, c ionian is sm pattern as d dorian, e phrygian, f lydian, g mixolydian, a aeolian, b locrian IFF YOU ARE IN THE SAME POSITION.

what you find is that there is really only one pattern... and with that one pattern you can generate all modes, but there are 7 different positions (5 if you use the boxed mode system)... so there are really only 7 different patterns that make up all keys/all modes.

q2... much more complex question... you need to learn to identify a key center (that's what u r asking)... you learn this by first learning the harmonized chord scale... (both q's are really to vast to address in a short anwer but here goes)

take c ionian for example...
if you take the notes (cdefgabc) and go every other one you get
c e g b
that is a cmaj7 chord

sm thing starting from d you get
d f a c
that is a dminor7 chord

then e...
e g b d
e minor 7 chord

keep going till you got em all

cmaj7 dmi7 emi7 fma7 gdominent7 amin7 bmin7flat5
Imaj7 IImi7 IIImi7 IVma7 V7 VImi7 VIImi7b5

using this info... if you recognize a song has the chords cmaj7 fma7 gdominent7... you know you can play the cmaj (ionian) scale over it and it will work great.
this is probably a lot to take in all at once... but it's the best I can do for now...

The Modes can be thought of as starting on different degrees of the major scale.
Ionian -- 1st degree (is the same as the major scale)
Dorian -- 2nd degree.
Etc...

Since the major scale pattern is: (In 'steps')
Whole
Whole
Half
Whole
Whole
Whole
Half

Then starting on the 2nd degree of the Major scale, Dorian would be:
Whole
Half
Whole
Whole
Whole
Half
Whole

-----------

For Dorian, you are playing from the second degree of the Major scale. Your target 'home' note is that 2nd degree.
Basically, the modes are harmonizations of the Major scale.
It just happens to be that the notes for Ionian are identical to the Major scale, and the notes for the 6th degree mode, Aeolion, are identical to the
natural minor scale.

Hope I didnt muck it up too bad for ya...

thanks Mike and ZIP!

Yes, it's pretty confusing. I'm learning, which is always a good thing.

Although my phrasing sucks, feel free to take a listen to my upload, doing a E dominant Phrygian scale.

Take your C Major(Ionian) scale CDEFGAB. C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian. These are your modes for the key of C. Just look at the notes of the modes, D Dorian is DEFGABC, A minor is ABCDEFG, they're the same notes they just start on a different degree of the scale. Dorian will always be the 2nd degree of the major scale, Phrygian will always be the 3rd degree of the major scale and so on. This goes for all 12 keys. So lets say your in the key of G, look at your G major scale GABCDEF#, and you want to play an aeolian mode, you play E aeolian because E is the 6th degree in the G major scale. E aeolian EF#GABCD, same notes as G Major because all of the modes for the major scale are the same notes they just start on a different degree.

This video should spell it out for you man.. As far as I'm concerned, Steve Vai is the most knowledgeable guitar soloist in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDx6dtr2T50

It's good to know your scales, but don't put a whole lot of stock in them. Phrasing your scales to speak is much more important.

Peace.

so true notes don't mean sh*t.just play what u feel that is the best thing about playing guitar. no rules

I'm being orce to play lead. andnow my head hurts.
Thanks guys you have confused the crap out of me again.

Check this out Sans..

You are not alone. Even Kirk from Metallica feels our pain sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=546KjKMB9kw&NR=1