General Music Chat

Since we have been discussing what music is... Below is a comment I posted previously here, and unfortunately it got very little response. Maybe 2nd time around is the charm?

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"Where Does Music Come From?"

Music at it's essence is sound, groups of sounds, an organization of sounds. And sounds are heard (and felt) through sound waves. Vibration.

Ultimately the vibrations of pitch and tone as well as Rhythm, touch something inside of us. Because we are essentially energy (all matter is) we also give off vibrations. A heart beat, which beats in 2/2 time, speeds up when excited, slows down when calm or sleeping. You feel a "sinking" (or bassish) feeling when sad. etc...

Music is universal, because the vibrations of music resonate with the vibrations we have experienced, even since the womb. Language is unnecessary. We can hear a song in any language and generally "understand" whether it is a happy song, a sad song, a reflective song, a devestatingly tragic song, etc...

When music is played, it is expressing something. That expression is understood, and felt through the prism of our own life experiences. We are being touched by the music, because we are empathizing, with the emotion it is expressing.

We respond not just audibly through our ears, but sound waves actually pass through our body. Think of that. The sound goes THROUGH our very being, whether flesh, spirit or both, depending upon your belief system.

When the vibrations which we can empathize with, already on an intellectual level, pass through us, I believe, that we actually "feel" that emotion, almost as if it originated inside of us. In other words, when we have an excited vibration naturally, we know how that feels, and our brain processes that information for us, and when the excited musical vibration passes through our bodies, I think it actually feels much the same and triggers that emotion within us, since it feels almost the same.

Which is why people universally can understand the feeling of the music correctly, regardless of even language barriers. Music really is the great unifier.

On an even deeper level, there is a fairly recent theory in physics called "String Theory" which basically states that smaller (or more elemental) than protons and electrons, even more elemental than quarks, matter at the very smallest subatomic level is ALL made up of "strings" vibrating at different frequencies. Traditionally, in the standard model, subatomic particles are like fixed points. They can move, but little else. But strings, can move AND oscillate. Which opens the door to a whole new possibility. These strings vibrate at different frequencies producing the variations we see in matter. Just as various stringed instruments vibrate at different frequencies and produce different sounds.

The beautiful thing about string theory, is that it may in fact be the holy grail of physics, united all accepted theories (quantum mechanics & Relativity) as well as the four fundamental forces in the universe. Leading it to be called the "Theory of Everything".

To repeat my point once more....

"These strings vibrate at different frequencies producing the variations we see in matter. Just as various stringed instruments vibrate at different frequencies and produce different sounds."

The universe itself, may in fact be, one giant and incredibly beautiful and complex symphony.

As a musician, my friends, you may in fact be speaking God's own language!

Don't ever let anyone tell you that music is a worthless endeavor!

many thousands of years ago were sitting around banging sticks, bones, and rocks together and by accident started doing it in unison and then some cavewomen started shrieking in harmony quite by accident and many thousands of years later we have American Idol. That's where music came from. Later...your friendly neighborhood bluesman and part-time music historian fisherman bob

Nice piece, as always.

My own take on music is that it's made up of two parts - to borrow from old Latin terms and esoteric philosophies, "music" is made up of "animus" - organized sound that can be written down, reproduced and recorded - and "anima" the musicality, the spirit, that scientifically unmeasurable quality that makes us feel, or be transformed in some way or some degree.

I believe that the "anima" of music will forever remain elusive and evade cold analysis. Let me give you an example. In terms of music theory (animus - scientific, leftbrained stuff) I can take a single line from arguably one of the greatest pieces produced by Western Europe - Beethoven's 9th symphony - (Chorale) and lay it out on a data table both in tone and rhythm. The rhythm is almost childishly simple, four bars of four quarter-notes, ending with an eigth note and holding on a half note. The tones are:

F# F# G A A G F# E D D E F# F# E E

Wow, big deal right? I mean this is almost comically facile. I could take that rhythm and that cadence, and come up with a dozen variations that still hold to the form.

YET.....

Why is it that this ridiculously simple passage can cause the souls of so many to soar? Why is it so moving, so powerful? To take my experiment further, lets use Herr Beethovens same rhythym and use one of my note variations instead -

A A F# A B B F# B D C# B A F# E A

Hmmm...tonically it works. Harmonically it works. Yet why is it oddly...inferior?

What you are dealing with here is the mystery of musicality in music - the anima. The undefinable draw, the beauty, the power. To bring it to the realm of the visual, science can explain all day long what happens in the atmosphere during a sunset, but science is left mute when asked to explain why a sunset is beautiful.

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many thousands of years ago were sitting around banging sticks, bones, and rocks together and by accident started doing it in unison and then some cavewomen started shrieking in harmony quite by accident and many thousands of years later we have American Idol. That's where music came from. Later...your friendly neighborhood bluesman and part-time music historian fisherman bob

While funny, that doesn't get to the heart of the matter. Why did the accidental noises MEAN anything to them? Why does it MEAN the SAME THING to peoples worldwide, regardless of language barriers or cultural differences? This is at the very CORE of humanity. Tones in certain pitches and rhythms MEAN the same thing to ALL people. Psychologists have found, for example, that "baby talk" made by mothers worldwide, is essentially the same, regardless of language or culture. It is distinctly a pitch that starts low, and raises feverishly in pitch to a near falsetto range and back down. Babies "understand" and "respond" to this particular "song" made by mothers, no matter what language it is utterred in, and no matter what words are spoken. In that sense, tone, is more primally a part of us, than even language itself. We respond to tone BEFORE we learn to speak. We hear and understand angry tones, or happy tones, or nurturing tones. Infants respond to these, LONG BEFORE, they learn what words mean and represent.

We are born communicating with music, BEFORE language. Think about that, and realize how important music is. How essential it is. How at our core, we have a longer relationship with music, than language.

When people yell in anger, it is with sharp stacatto notes, and so music that pierces in sharp stacatto notes, is "understood" to be angry. When we are watching a scary movie that raises anticipation (and fear) little by little and then explodes when someone jumps through a window at us, our hearts get faster and faster, racing to the same climax. Music immitates this, by matching the same crescendo, and climaxing in the same way. There was a great composer, whose name elludes me now, but he claimed something along the lines of... that he could compose a piece of music representing a dinner party, down to someone picking up a fork, and that without pre-knowledge, his audience could "feel" and understand what was taking place. Perhaps that was a stretch and perhaps not, but you get the point.

Music, is "understood" through universal experiences that all people share and/or understand. Because our very lives are in essence, musical. Our first interactions and communications as infants are musical.

Please don't tell me I'm the only one here who understands how profound this all is?

You are the only one that understands how profound it is. LOL

Nice piece, as always.

First of all, thank you Irminsul, for a thought provoking and intelligent response. I'm all for discussing whether Rosie O'Donell was beneficial to "The View" or not, or why the Atlanta Braves, who have had more post-season runs at the title than maybe any other team in history, have only one title to show for it, but....

Damn it! I'd like to be able to intelligently discuss the deeper aspects of life with peers who can provoke even deeper insights into these issues, every once in a while too!

My own take on music is that it's made up of two parts - to borrow from old Latin terms and esoteric philosophies, "music" is made up of "animus" - organized sound that can be written down, reproduced and recorded - and "anima" the musicality, the spirit, that scientifically unmeasurable quality that makes us feel, or be transformed in some way or some degree.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that breakdown, but I am not so sure that the latter, the "anima" is not scientifically measurable. For example, let's consider "beauty". Like music, it has been considered "elusive" in terms of understanding what defines it. Why are some women considered beautiful and others not?

The adage goes "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

This is only partially true now it seems. While there are tribal groups that consider wooden implants stretching the lips to the size of cup saucers, as a mark of beauty, this is the exception rather than the rule.

A group of scientists in attempting to decipher what it is that makes a woman beautiful or not, made some interesting discoveries not long ago. The common theme was symmetry. Using computer models, and interviewing large numbers of participants, it was found that women whose faces were almost perfectly symmetrical, and whose spacing between eyes and mouth and nose, etc.. fit certain criteria, were almost universally considered amongst the most beautiful.

In other words, beauty was (in general) definable and scientifically measurable. Perhaps music, and why we respond to it, will likewise be as discernable? After all, seeing "beauty", usually considered a subjective exercise, is a good parallel to hearing "moving music", also considered subjective. But just as beauty is beginning to find scientific understanding, so too, could music.

Here's a question for you though....

Would that ruin it? Is the "mistique" part of the excitement of it all? If it were one day scientifically possible to create, through prgramming parameters, music that was understood to be the most beautiful and brilliant in the world, on par with Beethoven and Mozart, would it diminish somehow the "art" of music? Because now we knew, psychologically, how to replicate it with a computer program, almost devoid of human intervention?

Or is psychology enough?

Is there a spiritual element, or is it merely psychological?

Please don't tell me I'm the only one here who understands how profound this all is?

You are the only one that understands how profound it is. LOL

Smart ass! LOL

Here's a question for you though....

Would that ruin it? Is the "mistique" part of the excitement of it all? If it were one day scientifically possible to create, through prgramming parameters, music that was understood to be the most beautiful and brilliant in the world, on par with Beethoven and Mozart, would it diminish somehow the "art" of music? Because now we knew, psychologically, how to replicate it with a computer program, almost devoid of human intervention?

Yeah, that would be a terrible shame. Mystique is an integral part of the human adventure, and that includes music. First of all, I highly doubt that musical anima is a scientifically determinable quantity. I believe that they will still be debating this elusive thing centuries from now. But even if it were determinable, my next question would be....why persue it? If it were extracted and bottled so that everyone could do it, there would be no more "that blows me away" pieces because they would ALL be like that. It in effect would kill the anima by rendering it neutral. From that perspective, there would be no more truly great music because there would be no more reference point to determine that value.

This gets into risky territory, because I am a highly spiritual person who absolutely believes in, and practices with, the sublime. While science and technology are of high value to me, I think we are reaching a point where we are missing the lessons that Mystery can give us. Ever notice how many people commit suicide every year who seem to have about every goodie and luxury a person could have? Why is that? Scientifically, they should be ecstatic. I believe in many cases it is because there is a giant gaping hole in their soul. A leakage in the boat that should be taking the anima to new golden shores.

Bleh, I'm getting to poetic now. I'll stop this post here.

If it were extracted and bottled so that everyone could do it, there would be no more "that blows me away" pieces because they would ALL be like that. It in effect would kill the anima by rendering it neutral. From that perspective, there would be no more truly great music because there would be no more reference point to determine that value.

Perhaps if that were to occur, then the "value" would be reconsidered, so that music not seemingly "perfect" was more appreciated. For example, imperfect coins and stamps are worth more because it is "unique" when a mistake is made. that uniqueness, gives them more value to collectors.

Or perhaps a different expression would emerge, a new way of looking at music, in the way that Impressionism changed art forever in the 19th century?

As humans, we evolve, perceptions change, and then everyone mimics the new methodology, then something new or different emerges to separate from the pack and divert our attention once again, in a seemingly never ending cycle.

Ok, I'm mumbling nonsense now, which means it's time to go to bed. LOL

But thanks for the valuable insights, they are refreshing.

[Perhaps if that were to occur, then the "value" would be reconsidered, so that music not seemingly "perfect" was more appreciated. For example, imperfect coins and stamps are worth more because it is "unique" when a mistake is made. that uniqueness, gives them more value to collectors.

Or perhaps a different expression would emerge, a new way of looking at music, in the way that Impressionism changed art forever in the 19th century?

Powerful music - music that "connects" is not about perfection. Perfection suggests the quintessential state of an ideal, whereas music with a strong anima stands on its own, without a need for perfection.

I don't seek perfection in powerful, moving pieces. Nor do I strive for that in my own music. Instead, I look for, and strive for, beauty. Connection to the sublime.

Last "deep" thought of the night. - The only perfect thing is Death.

Thanks for your comments Craig. I gotta say the convo has elevated miles into the air over the past couple of days and I'm damn happy for it.

Im not the writer that the rest of you are on here obviously.

To me music is simply a captured emotion. I think music kind of floats in the cosmos waiting for someone to tune into it. The other day I was waiting at a doctors office and this construction crew was driving these pilings in the ground next door. At first it was very annoying, but when I listened and opened my mind to it positively. It had a rythym to it and I was kind of groving to it. Everyone else in there was pissed off but in the end I kind of enjoyed it.

Music is all around us, you just have to be open for the moment and capture it. Thats where technology comes in, capturing it and holding onto it.

JW

I just want to add, Thanks for the post. Hopefully it wont wind up in the gutter like some do on here.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if you have understanding. Who has laid the measures of it if you know? Or who has stretched the line upon it? On what are the foundations of it fastened? And who laid the cornerstone of it, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

Job ch.38


that's a pretty ancient reference...
if you're into that sorta thing..

Have you ever noticed that there are some bands that record badly and yet you are compelled to listen?

That is a true sign of musician. Give them dirt, rocks and a stick and they come up with something you are compelled to like. You may not even appreciate the rock, stick, dirt genre, but you like what they do with it.

Refute that!~ lol

Have you ever noticed that there are some bands that record badly and yet you are compelled to listen?

That is a true sign of musician. Give them dirt, rocks and a stick and they come up with something you are compelled to like. You may not even appreciate th rock, stick, dirt genre, but you like what they do with it.

Refute that!~ lol

I think that's more to the point. "They" have CONNECTED with something, and I'm just not convinced that any amount of laboratory or data base deconstruction will figure out exactly why.

'Tis the mystery of the spheres.