General Music Chat

The following rant was originally directed at a hometown problem, but I post it here because I want to see if there is a similiar difficulty in your locale. Pipe up and tell us your story if it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Playing For Free - Again


The leaves are turning, the wind is getting colder, and before you know it the train wreck of events we bundle into a period we call "The Holidays" will be upon us. As musicians, thats a good thing because that means performances, and more money in our pockets.

That is, unless you are once again finding yourself playing for free.

As a kid I sat through "A Christmas Carol" a hundred times. Dickens' timeless classic about the spirit of Holiday giving never gets old, and always seems to have such a huge audience. But in "Play for free" Utah, it's slipping through the cracks. Hogle Zoo, for instance, is having a lavish Christmas light show and is asking area musicians to come out and be a part of holiday cheer. They want to pay for the lights, the plumbing, their employees from counter help to the top administrative brass; but ye of the musical instrument, they want you to play for free. Oh, wait, yes, they promised the usual "but its great exposure!" trip. People die from exposure, don't they?

I contacted Hogle Zoo about my concerns, and was promptly answered with one of those curt, fakely polite "well you don't have to play here then" letters, sarcastically signed off with "Happy Holidays". A nicely veiled "f**k you" I must say, that only seasoned PR professionals can bang out on a regular basis. Truly, I was going to leave this issue alone after writing them once. But their response made me realize there is much more going wrong in the Utah music scene than just chronic and widespread refusal to pay musicians. It is topped now with a hubris, an arrogance from some businesses that communicates to musicians that, not only are they not worth paying, but there is nothing ethically wrong with screwing them and they should take the anal probe happily.

Before this rant gets out of hand, a few things. No, this sad phenomenon is not limited to Utah. Yes, some Utah businesses are very conscientious about paying musicians for their events. Yes, it is ok to play for free sometimes, at the musician's choosing. I set aside a certain amount of hours per year that I decide to devote to charity playing, as do most other professionals I know. But what's the line? When should I ask for pay, and why does it matter if li'l ol' me does some free gigs?

That's a tough one, because businesses and organizations don't usually open their books to you and show you why they "can't pay". You have to make a subjective judgement on a case by case basis. For instance I limit my charity work to real charities or humane causes (homeless benefits events, etc) and not businesses that make money and plead poverty when it comes time to hire a musician. All it takes is a little observation. When you walk into a place that is expensive looking, has a pretty lavish carterer and the like, and they don't want to pay you, there is a high likelihood you're getting screwed.

And what about that, if its just me? Surely my isolated experience isn't going to affect the big picture, right? Wrong. Not to get into quantum physics here, but everything we do does indeed affect everyone else, in some way. When a musician plays for free all the time, not only will she or he get the rep of being a freebie, but that idea will spread around the commercial community. When a business successfully gets a musician to play for free, once or many times, they tell others amongst them. Their network will of course pull the same stunt, to save money. Word of mouth gets around. Next thing you know, my little 'isolated incident' chisels ten or a hundred other musicians out of a paying gig, or gets untold others rejected because they asked for a decent fee. In a nutshell, if you let yourself get clobbered, we all get clobbered.

Ultimately, this gets down to a question of ethics. We can argue ability to pay back and forth as the day is long, but the salient point here is that musicians deserve to make a living. When you become one, you have just committed to uncountable hours days and years of practice and study. Lugging heavy equipment around. Often very expensive instruments and their upkeep. Why then, is it moral to have your checkbook out with no question, when you need a plumber or lawyer...but close it when it comes to hire a player? How fast would a building contractor fold up shop if you asked them to work for free?

We can change this nonsense, but it first comes with changing a mindset. That mindset arguably gets a huge boost from the local culture, which teaches that music is a gift from God, and therefore should be given freely no matter what it takes out of the musician. We stop this by, first and foremost, reeducating businesses and organizations who may have it in their head that what we do is always free. Let them know. Most of the time, Hogle Zoo notwithstanding, they are amazingly open to changing their attitudes. Secondly, we need to apply pressure to those who refuse to pay an honorable fee to musicians. That's done by spreading the word about their practices in the community. When they see it is harder and harder to find musicians, and they dont want to ask cousin Tiffany to sing off key at the company Christmas party anymore, they may likely change their ways.

So to businesses and organizations who pay their musicians, we thank you. We won't forget you, either. To those entities who do not, and will not, do the right thing, remember that a bad rep is like syphlis - easy to get and almost impossible to eradicate. And, to musicians who continually play for free even when they dont need to, remember that you are keeping money out of more pockets than just your own.

There is an old Gaelic saying that goes "A thank you doesn't pay the fiddler." Please, remember to pay the fiddler.

_______________________________________________________

I enjoyed reading your thread here. Well written.

This is a real problem, however and I have tried to explain why as follows.

I had this explained to me by a club owner years back and I have said this many times and will again. We as musicians have to provide a product that is worth paying for or better yet, commands payment. It is agreed that anyone providing a service should receive some type of monetary compensation for their effort, however looking at the scenario strictly from a business perspective that is not the case. If I am a club owner and I can get a band to play for very little or free, that is in my best interest. If I can "screw" the band and make money what do I care? Poor attitude, poor business, but realistic. So what are we to do?

A band/perfomer has to bring a solid value to the club owner, and that value translates into a monetary reward. As I have stated in other threads on the matter, if a band/performer can guarantee an audience of let's say 500 every show, they are going to get paid, very well. It's simple economics. It is now in the eyes of the club owner advantageous to make the outlay of several hundred or Ks of dollars because the return on investment there will be 10 fold.

It's all business and the business world is all about ROI. So the approach to take just like in the business world is for a band/performer to make themselves so valuable that instead of being at the mercy of the club owner, the club owner is at their mercy.

If a band/perfomer can't do that, perhaps another field of endeavor is in order.

Just because we love what we do, and are passionate about it doesn't mean it commands payment.

I don't know about others here but most places I go where there is a band playing makes me want to see them get paid....... to stop.

Good rant Irminsul.
You know what it is? we, meaning us musicians and vocalists that have spent years or our lives honing our craft, are viewed or seen as amateurs enjoying a hobby instead of Professionals using a skill.
If you're not some card carrying member of some Musicians Union, or having a label backing you they tend to deem us as an expendable "dime-a-dozen" novelty..."don't like it? huh, i'll just find someone else" and the problem like you pointed out is..."Yes, they can find someone else, that'll play just for the opportunity to be playing out". It's a vicious cycle that has gotten worse over the years...i can't pinpoint an era or genre that got the ball rolling so to speak, all i know is it's picked up steam and seems to be par for the course. And we can't relieve ourselves of blame either, our mindset of "this gig will put me/us where i/we want to be or at the very least expose me/us to future gigs or put me/us in contact with the right people" is in retrospect detrimental to musicians wanting to make a few bucks at it. Can we stop or reverse this 'damn near devastating' phenomena? I strongly doubt it...boycot playing certain venues? demand payment? beg plead and throw yourself at their mercy?...ha ha, they'll just find someone else.
With us freelance musicians/groups there never will be a concenus to band together and ask or demand fair treatment and pay from venue owners in our localities, all it will take is "that one" to break ranks and do it for free or on the cheap or worse yet...beer, then your back to square one if not worse; i'd be willing to bet, most localities have 5, 6, 10 or 20's of "that one".

Good points Weg, and Franny. Thanks for chiming in.

Wegman seemed to mainly be speaking to the nightclub/bar players and I think I need to clarify something - I was really addressing the "event" players, like office parties, conventions, weddings, wakes, and things of that nature. Most notably, events where every other service at the thing (catering, space rent, etc) is being compensated but the musicians.

It gets down to not only making a living, but a point of respect. We live in a society and culture very much run by the dollar. If you are having an event and feel it necessary enough to need musicians and what they provide, you need to be able to pay for it; not just to compensate the players but to demonstrate to musicians that "what you provide has value".

hah
music ..a hobby?
try the IT field too friends...

Computer geeks are so far off whack from other professionals in terms of respect, skills, perks etc it's pretty funny..

Everyone thinks "oh..he does a hobby for work, it must be fun: let's stick him in a cube & pay him McD's wages"

eesh

Yes I was referring to the club scene since there is where most of us have the most experience. Sorry I missed you were referring to the corporate/wedding etc. scene.

Let's face it guys, there are a ton of rock/cover bands out there and the market is saturated. Of these how many are really good? I mean really good, like can pull off Stair Way to Heaven or something like that if requested and do it well? I also believe the public at large views allowing the band to play for an audience as payment.

I would think a group such as yours Irminsul capable of playing in such a unique genre would not be subjected to this treatment, at least to an extreme level. I told you from the stuff of yours I listened to you are very talented, and thus in a different league. Add to that the genre in which you can play and I would think you would be more on the side to demand what you want. Going back to my previous comments this is the point I was trying to make. If some one is in a cover band and they can pull off all kinds of difficult stuff if requested (Rush, Van Halen, Zepplin) I would think that would make them more valuable then a band playing simple stuff like all the 3 chord wonders out there today. If a band is original and can get following going of several hundred or thousand, same thing.

It is my opinion that many musicians have delusions of grandeour, and really are not rooted in reality. Look at this board. 3/4 of the members here don't have content up. Of the 1/4 that does how much is really good? I include myself in this demagraphic because no one is beating my door down or telling me how good I am from my content.

This is an extremely difficult, cut throat business. 98% of everyone doesn't have a chance, I mean forget it, no chance. So if your talents as band/performer put you in the upper 2%, now it is worth persuing proffesionally or seriously. If not, it's a hobby and be thankful for any monetary compensation you can get.

And Celtic,

Oh man do I ever know where you are coming from. The suits have no idea of who I am or what I do, or even know my name. I have the education and experience on par with an MD and get 0 respect. But when a system hits the ground, suddenly I am the most popular guy on campus.

The first problem I noticed with this arguement of being paid or not being paid is the fact that its one sided ..... meaning .... its and offline arguement leaving out the activities of online interaction and career status.

Being that I specialize in Online Careers ... i'm going to chime in with my opinion adding a few concepts to this paid and not paid arguement.

I see complaints that artists (whether considered professional or non professional) are doing gigs for little or no money.... and of course ... regardless of how much one will make ... there will always be a damand for more pay. Are you being paid enough ... well that would have to be judged more so per talent and what the venue is getting for their money. Though before attacking the venues .... its only reasonable to understand that its the responsibility of the bar administration to get a case of beer at the lowest cost possible ... and if he/she can get it for FREE ... you know damn well they are going to. Should they be insulted for this?. This works the same way for tables and chairs, doors and windows, and even entertainment. The fault is not the venues who are paying little ... but rather ... the talent's for accepting little.... or .... if the Beer Company is crazy enough to give a venue a case of beer for FREE .... well.... thats their problem.... and the venue's gain.

But.... I have to wonder how this is even an issue. I say this ... because of the major problem I witness on every single musician's site I have found so far. I will find people complaining about receiving McDonald's wages for performing for 200 people at a venue.... but yet ..... smile to strangle themselves for uploading their music on a website for 30 million people to hear for FREE. Make up your mind. Do you want to be paid by people listening to your music or not?

The main problem .... in my opinion ... is that talents haven't realized yet that the online status of their career is more important than their offline career .... and ohhhhhhh i'm gonna get some feedback on that statement I know it.

But the reality is this. You could tell me that you pack 50,000 fans into a stadium on a monthly basis.... (and ... like thats going to happen) ... my reply is going to be ..... ummmmm wellllll thats good .... but what about your online status? I'll ask this because ... without a proper online status ... you don't have a proper career status.

50,000 fans in a stadium every month would be great. But ... bebo.com is packing 30 million on their skinny little site. MySpace has just under 30 million, Facebook has 34 million. (I haven't investigated YouTube for member count yet).

So .... trying to understand the complaint here again ... McDonalds wages and/or FREE wages for preforming for 200 people is bad ... but performing for literally millions of people for FREE is good. I suppose you can agrue that offline gigs are more work. You have to setup the stage, carry a bunch of equipment around .... well that agruement just won't cut it. The main commodity here is the music itself your selling.... not the 2 hours of carried equipment. And the agruement here is about what artists are receiving for the music shared not the compensation for carried stuff.

The problem is simple: Artists are giving away their music for FREE.... period. Both online and offline. If I go through the trouble of recording my music ... there is no way in hell I am going to gig it for FREE at any venue..... and in retrospect .... I won't be contradicting my values by uploading my tracks to god knows how many websites for literally millions of people to hear for FREE. It goes back to my previous statement .. either I want to be paid for my music shared .... or I don't ... I would have to make up my mind.

Its difficult to appreciate someone's complaint about having to share their music for "poor or no wages" at some venue with a couple hundred fans ....... when that same person has their music uploaded online for people to hear for FREE.

If anything ... it should be the other way around. GIGing offline ... at best .... will get you what? Seriously.... what the hell will it get ya? 200 seated fans? 500? 2000? 10,000? And at what exposure? Your hometown? Big freaking deal.

With just one properly organized website you could have a seating of millions upon millions of people ...... global..... and achieve a monthly income from that seating..... without even leaving your house. You complain about carrying that equipment around .... fine .... don't carry it. In fact ... don't gig offline at all. Why bother ... for just 200 people?

Myspace, Bebo, YouTube, Bandmix, etc. .... are all venues just like that bar/club down town from you. Some venues are online and some are offline. If you upload your music on Bebo ... you just agreed to gig there. Whether or not your being paid by bebo for giging there is of course between you and them. You could say .... oh its for the exposure thats why I upload my music to bebo... but c'mon now .... if that agruement don't swollow well when gigging offline ... then it won't when giging online.

Musickmage,

I agree with the majority of your post with one clarification.

Yes, online an artist can reach a much broader audience however to back up my position, say out of that 30million on line customer base only 100 or 50 think the artist content is worth purchasing?

Allow me to use this example. The Van Halen reunion is selling out allot of venues and it is rumored they were offered just short of the GNP of the nation for the tour. Now is that because the powers that be believe there is no market for it?

So IMO it doesn't matter how large the customer base is that can be reached in any medium. It is how marketable the content being provided is, which leads me back to whether Pro, Amat, hobby etc. not much of it is.

Correct Wegman .... which is why I am using a different marketing system. Consider this:

My Website is a venue.... just like all other musician's websites that encourages talents to upload their music to their sites. And as a venue ... I should pay talents for uploading their music to my site. Sure .... I could be like Myspace and Bebo and become popular from the work of others ... acquire millions of members based on the music uploaded to my site by talents. We can all remember the names of the sites .. such as bebo and myspace ... but name the people on it.... thats the difference in my Marketing scheme.

I put the talents ahead of the Website itself.

The Marketing System is this:

A member joins my site ... but at a cost. They pay say.... $9.95 per month for membership. Upon joining they "must" choose 3 onsite talents they wish for their membership fee to sponsor. Those 3 talents recieve a percentage of the membership fee as pay for their music being on my site... another words .... they were just paid for giging.

The marketing system is based on the fact that without the talent ... my site is nothing. Without the talent .. my site isn't worth 2 cents to rub together.... and neither is bebo's. If all the talents left bebo ... that place would crumble so fast you wouldn't even have time to see it go. So I think its about time onsite venues offer due respect to these online talents.

But I think the idea is too simple .... for talents just can't seem to get the idea in their heads yet. I tell them .... give me control of your online status... let "me" look after you ... the man who is against giving your music away for FREE. And wellllll..... they still upload their music for FREE. Go figure.

Imagine If I did get this marketing scheme in effect ... and began making alot of money off of it ... not only for me .. but for the talents as well. How long do you think it will take bebo and Myspace to say .... hmmm ... interesting idea. Monkey see monkey do... especially when it concerns profit.

Talents need to get around to realizing that the internet is playing an overwhelming part in their career.... and .... they have to start looking at a serious marketing scheme if they want to earn a proper income. Throwing your back out of place carrying a bunch of equipment around for a 200 or so person gig is fine ... but it won't do a hell of a lot for your career. And neither will uploading your music on a website for FREE .... worse ... paying the website a monthly fee out of your own pocket to be a member there and upload your music. I mean ... c'mon.. do you call your local bar/clubs and say ... hey listen man .. i''ll give you $300 to let me play there next Friday? You don't do this offline .... so why are you doing it online?

Yes Wegman .... marketing is one of the primary concerns whether your gigging online or offline.... and must be given proper care. Uploading your music to any site for FREE .... is simply BAD MARKETING.... if in fact your griping about not being paid properly for gigging.

When you say 'a member joins your site' are you talking about the 'talents' and that they have to pay $9.95 per month but may get some money back if someone sponsers them????

No ... the talents join for FREE ... the Fans pay the membership cost ... like a door fee at a venue.

People upload their music onto these sites for people to listen to for free but you cannot necessarily download the music for free!!

I just went onto your bidzcentre.com site and listened to Natalie for free. Cannot see the difference to be fair..

The difference is ... thats her request. Not mine. The difference is ... I can't get 30 million fans to pay for membership for 1 Artist. The difference is ..... you don't need to download the music if its assessable on a website. Why download it to your hard drive where it will take up space if my website will put it on a server for you to hear at any time.

Your not thinking logically here.....

So what ... its not being downloaded. I can still hear it whenever I want. For FREE.

I am working with Natalie to get her music off of websites as we speak. So going to the BidzCenter to hear her music for free ... or bebo, myspace ... or any other site .... is coming to an end.

Soon ... if you want to hear Natalie ... its going to cost you. She doesn't GIG for FREE offline ... and soon ... she won't be GIGing for FREE online either.

That page where you heard her music from ... I can lock you out of that page until you sign in .... I can lock you out of signing in .... till you pay. Presto ... money in her pocket for GIGing.

Well good luck with it chuck, I hope it works for you!!

But in all honesty I've bought CD's off artists on account of hearing their music on myspace and have had people contact me to tell me to pull my finger out and get a CD sorted so I think myspace is still a good tool in that respect!!

One subject at a time .. lol... I wasn't talking about CD Production or Sales ... I was commenting on GIGing. And .. with my marketing scheme .. your "still heard".... but heard with a profit opportunity this time.

Would you like to discuss CD marketing now? That I can do as well.

One major concept your not considering is.... Myspace is in the business of promoting a website using Talents (and other ideas) as a tool. The business decisions Myspace makes on a daily basis will be based on the needs of the website first ... and everything else second.

I am in the business of promoting Talents ... using Websites as a tool. The decisions I make on a daily basis depends on the needs of the Talents first ... and everything else second ... including the websites. The Website is just a tool I use for promoting talents..... its the talents that are the real commodity..... and who I am concerned with first.

Myspace won't lift a finger to promote your music for you ... other than give you a place to upload your music ... which is your loss ... and their gain. Just how many people do you think you will convince to buy a CD that you have on a website for them to hear for FREE? I wouldn't build your entire career on that plan if I were you.