General Music Chat

I recently booked a show that unfortunately can't be played due to "somebody" being on vacation that day. Well, I tried to get the guy to re-schedule but no response at all. Hell, getting him to contact me at all was a surprise.

Anyways, since I've been dealing with venues again it seems like things have changed a bit. Everything seems tightened up. If you cancel your first gig with over two months notice are you still doomed to maybe never play there again? I realize they did me a favor but hey, at least I got back to him that same night of booking it.

All this venue drama is just making my band experience more of a pain to have a good time with. Its a miracle that I'm still in! figured if I could at least get to play out then everything would make more sense in the long run, but maybe living in a Spinal Tap movie is an unavoidable thing.

Another question: What are some sure signs that you should just quit your band?

Kruliosis, Booking gigs is always one of the LEAST desirable parts of being in a band. Having said that it is a necessary evil! Club owners and managers are some of the biggest @ssholes out there Lol. Booking gigs takes the patient of a saint. If you are patient and keep your head IMO it is all about building a repore with the managers. After you play there a few times and prove yourself you can get to where YOUR band is their go To band. I have been there and once you get to that place it is COOL as hell. As far as to when you can tell that the band is about to break up my answer would be when the leader says the band is going to break up! It is always best to keep the band as close to a democracy as possible but SOMEONE has to make the final call. Preferably the member that has the biggest investment. Bands are ALWAYS a VERY volatile situation and it takes a leader with very THICK SKIN and a lot of patient.

Kruliosis, Booking gigs is always one of the LEAST desirable parts of being in a band. Having said that it is a necessary evil! Club owners and managers are some of the biggest @ssholes out there Lol. Booking gigs takes the patient of a saint. If you are patient and keep your head IMO it is all about building a repore with the managers. After you play there a few times and prove yourself you can get to where YOUR band is their go To band. I have been there and once you get to that place it is COOL as hell.

J_HALEY speaks the absolute truth, as he always does in my limited experience here.

My band played nearly 100 gigs, and what I have found is that luck also has a lot to do with getting a regular venue (unless you're terrific) and finding a terrific and fair owner/manager.

For example, we got really lucky once when a band cancelled at a venue two days before the date of the gig. It turned out that the gig was a Saturday, so it's not like he could say, "Sorry, no band." Anyway, he called around to every band that had ever played there, so we might have been 486th on his list, or something. In fact, we had only played there twice...EVER...and the most recent time had been six months prior.

Anyway, our usual fee was $250, (including everything) plus everyone in the band gets to eat (Unofficial Rule for Our Band: Never order more than $10/food per man and always tip at least $5 (as a band) to the bartender) and drink all of the fountain soda we want.

In any case, he asks, "How much is it going to be?"

Knowing I had him by the b@!!$, I replied, "$250 for a three-hour set with a half-hour break, that's what we always charge."

Anyway, the bar had a really good night that night and he paid us $500 without us even asking for it. We ended up playing there every other Saturday for the next year, or so, (it wasn't the first time the other band screwed him) although that was for the usual $250. We'd probably still be playing there every other Saturday to this day had the band not dissolved.

If you think about it, and we played less than 100 gigs, a little over 25% of our gigs were there!!!

It also helps that we rocked @$$ that night.

BREAKING UP:

1.) When your drummer AND lead guitarist both move across the country and your bassist announces he will not play without drummer (who he used to date) because he was sick of the band not making any real money and was only sticking around hoping to get back together with her and you're left with just yourself (Lead Singer) and keyboardist in a Metal/Alternative/Hard Rock/Punk band.

2.) When a member of the band presses charges on another member of the band.

3.) When the aforementioned charges are for a crime that was actually committed.

4.) When someone in the band OD's and dies. Very few bands have really come back from that, and even those who have come back from it with financial success were a shadow of themselves musically.

5.) When the leader says the band is going to break up, per J_Haley's answer.

6.) When you've been together for 5+ years and your biggest gig was playing for your kid sister in a venue known as, "The Laundry Room."

7.) When people at a venue refer to Karaoke as, "A drastic improvement," to your band's performance.

8.) When, in a random survey, more than 2/3 people at the last bar you played were questioned upon exit and didn't know that there WAS a band that night.

9.) The day you even THINK about covering, "Ice, Ice, Baby," yes, even the Metal version.

10.) When you play at a 50+ nudist resort, in fact, it would be hard for me to even leave my house again after that.

LOL Pierce that would be one dysfunctional band! I have ex bandmates call me up wanting me to put a band together. I ran a band for 5 years and learned a lot! As band leader I:
1)kept the peace between members
2)booked the gigs
3)kept up with the taxes (1099's)
4)provided the p.a. lights and sound
5)kept up with the website
6)basically organized everything

1)I had a GOOD friend and keyboard player develop brain cancer and I kept him by my side playing with the band until he died.
2)Had a bass player get his heart broken by a ditz and cancel a gig of which I found a sub and we pulled the gig off!
3)Had a drummer quit for reasons unknown and went through a revolving door of drummers.
4) Had various venue's reschedule for their own convenience without consideration for the band.

My point is not to rant about the problems I had, but to say that there are always going to be problems. You have to decide what problems you can except and what you can not except. Then you draw the line in the sand all the while understanding that being in a band takes COMPROMISE! When various members in your band are unwilling to compromise or cross that line in the sand. You either replace them or say Hey DUDES I have had enough the band is breaking up!

Already some really good advice and responses that I needed to hear! Especially the part about patience, Haley. Man, I have to wait a couple of weeks to find out what everybody's schedule is(cause a couple members are dads) so I can't book a gig till I know, nor can I play the gig just offered on Dec. 24. That's the way it is though. What scares me are how some venues are about booking. They have the whole "if you can't play that one, goodbye". It's a merciless world out there. I compare getting shows to planning a wedding...it seems like that's how it can be. I haven't played in quite some time, so I'm sure I'm in for a learning experience.

I'm going to address both of you here:

J_HALEY,

I think that you should put another band together, I'd love to have that kind of opportunity, but I haven't gotten too much feedback lately on putting together a band or offering my services to an existing one. I think that the problem may be that quite a few people in the area have heard me sing before. I'm kidding, of course, the main problem is that the majority of my contacts are already involved in some project or another. I almost got to work with an excellent bassist with a great set of contacts, but then he ended up getting an offer that he would have been an idiot to pass up.

Some of it has to do with my limited availability, but what can you do?

As you may have expected #1 on my list is the actual reason we broke up. I'm sure #7 may have also been the case some nights...j/k

To your first list, I was responsible for all of the same stuff, except to #4 where I only provided the P.A. and #5 because we had no website.

I agree with everything in the last paragraph, and to Kruliosis, it's very important that you communicate where those lines in the sand are. It may seem that many of these, "Rules," are common sense, but you know what, money is common and not everyone has it.

Kruliosis,

It may seem merciless, but as a manager, I can say that if someone calls off for their first, second or third day of work, nothing outside of a medical slip (at least saying they were AT the doctor's or hospital) is ever going to get them on this premises again.

What you have to understand is that there is nothing merciless about it. The owners/managers are guys just like you and me either trying to make money (which can be tough in the bar business) or just doing the job they are paid to do. When you cancel a gig, you are creating a significant pain in the @$$ for them, regardless of the kind of notice that you give.

The owner/manager now has the added responsibility of coming up with an act or DJ or Karaoke for the date in question, he might have already advertised YOUR band for YOU. You could be on pre-printed calendars of events that the venue PAID for that are now all completely wrong. In short, your cancellation has caused him to do work that he otherwise would not have to do and to spend money that he otherwise would not have to spend.

Fortunately, if you provide loyal service to a venue, timely, professional service, and you have to cancel one time for a DARNED legitimate reason, most owners/managers will typically let one slide.

I guess one thing that neither myself nor J_HALEY has really mentioned yet is how important networking with other bands can be. You mentioned Dads, and as a Dad (even though I haven't been a Dad and band member at the same time, yet) Dads might have to cancel/duck out for any number of reasons. Networking is important because if you can find members of other bands with a similar repertoire, then sometimes you might be able to get a bassist or something to fill in if they aren't doing anything that night and a member of yor own band can't make it.

In fact, there was a band locally with whom we had a great relationship to the extent that we would swap members for practice to where each member would practice with the opposite band at least 2x/month. It was such that all of the members of the other band got to the point where they knew at least most of our original songs (and all covers) and vice-versa.

Let me tell you, there is no better commodity for a band to have than not having all of its eggs in one basket, if you'll pardon the cliche. In fact, even after our band broke up, over the course of three years, I probably filled in for the lead singer of that band for at least five gigs.

What I'm tripping on right now is the fact that I had no choice but to tell this last guy Dec. 24 is a no go...and I just had to tell him that we couldn't play late Jan because the guitarist is going to be in Hawaii. I'll be shocked if he reads my next message in two weeks when I let him know when we can play. I got this down...the venue is the one that is doing "us" a favor. They have a right to tell us to take a hike if we can't play. If you can make money for them, you're a great asset, if you're just trying to make your mark, then you're just another band...and there's a lot of other bands.

I hope this thing doesen't get blown. I know if you get a rep for anything negative as a musician then it can be a serious uphill battle to get anywhere in the future, regardless of how good your new band sounds. Its too easy to be known as "that guy who was in that flaky band", and years don't usually erase those kind of memories.

You have to be realistic when considering gigs Come on Christmas Eve? I wouldn't even consider a gig on that date unless it paid $50,000.00

I feel bad for you guys in parts of the country that play for $250.00 and have to put up with the b.s. just to get that!

I guess all things considered the music biz is just like the construction biz you have to migrate to where the work is.

Pierce, it is not unrealistic to be patient and get the gigs that you deserve! The one thing that I have noticed about musicians is that WE are great about making everything about the business happen with the Exception of SALES! Come on guys! You HAVE to understand how the business world works it is about supply and demand. When I was running Cruise Control we decided we only wanted to play 3 times a month. After a couple of years I did not have to make many calls for gigs (they called me) I had a repore with enough clubs that we could have played 10 times a month and trust me when I say I used that to our advantage $ . Any way when a bar or club or booking agent would call I used that to our advantage (after booking 3 gigs) I would say sorry we are all booked for that month. Well folks that just makes them want you more! We all want what we can't get RIGHT?

What I'm tripping on right now is the fact that I had no choice but to tell this last guy Dec. 24 is a no go...and I just had to tell him that we couldn't play late Jan because the guitarist is going to be in Hawaii. I'll be shocked if he reads my next message in two weeks when I let him know when we can play. I got this down...the venue is the one that is doing "us" a favor. They have a right to tell us to take a hike if we can't play. If you can make money for them, you're a great asset, if you're just trying to make your mark, then you're just another band...and there's a lot of other bands.

I hope this thing doesen't get blown. I know if you get a rep for anything negative as a musician then it can be a serious uphill battle to get anywhere in the future, regardless of how good your new band sounds. Its too easy to be known as "that guy who was in that flaky band", and years don't usually erase those kind of memories.

Dang, brother, I hope I didn't make it sound anywhere near that bad!

Here's the thing: Were either one of those dates a date for which you already committed to playing? If so, and people are really skeptical of other people, (especially in the bar business) maybe he just thinks you got a better offer elsewhere and are stiffing him. I know you think you did him a favor, but it probably didn't do you any favors to cancel on the same night that you originally booked it because it looks EXACTLY like you got a better offer and you're trying to pinch him for more money.

For example, I've never asked for a raise without having another job lined up, and my employer has always known exactly what I was offered for the other job. Anyway, that's what it looks like to him, I think, better to have waited a couple of days.

I wouldn't describe things in terms of doing or not doing favors for anyone. However, it is true that the venue decides whether or not you play there, how could anything else be the case? They are the ones paying the band, and much like an employer/employee relationship, the employer dictates whether or not you ever work at a certain location again.

I don't think you should worry too much about getting a bad rep for something like that, though. If one owner/manager runs around firing off his mouth to other owners/managers and anything that he says is untrue, and you can prove that he said it and that was untrue, you could theoretically sue his @$$.

Besides that, one would think that an owner/manager would want a band to get booked at another venue if that band is going to cancel, because then that will be more people going to a venue that actually has a band that night!!!

Kruliosis, Your guitar player IMO has crossed the line! The best way to handle bookings (the way I always have). When you feel you guys are about ready to play you get a calendar. In the calendar you tell the rest of your bandmates you guys need to black out the dates you are not going to be able to play for the next 4 months. You also explain to them that it is hard enough for me to get the Club managers/owners attention and when I do I am going to book it! I AM NOT GOING to contact you guys except to say we are booked on THIS DATE! If the guy's you are playing with are not forward thinking and considerate of you as the leader enough to appreciate what you ARE DOING FOR THEM then I would QUIETLY find their replacement or do what I eventually did and inform them "guy's the band is breaking up"

You have to be realistic when considering gigs Come on Christmas Eve? I wouldn't even consider a gig on that date unless it paid $50,000.00

Good man. I wouldn't play Christmas Eve for less than that, either, before I had my own family I probably would have, but we'd have charged double.

I feel bad for you guys in parts of the country that play for $250.00 and have to put up with the b.s. just to get that!

There were some bands that played for less, plus there were many solo singers on the country/folk end of things that played for less, but fortunately, they usually played totally different venues. Another thing worth considering is that this was six-ten years ago I'm talking about.

If you'll excuse such a bold question, how much did you guys usually get?

Pierce, it is not unrealistic to be patient and get the gigs that you deserve! The one thing that I have noticed about musicians is that WE are great about making everything about the business happen with the Exception of SALES! Come on guys! You HAVE to understand how the business world works it is about supply and demand. When I was running Cruise Control we decided we only wanted to play 3 times a month. After a couple of years I did not have to make many calls for gigs (they called me) I had a repore with enough clubs that we could have played 10 times a month and trust me when I say I used that to our advantage $ . Any way when a bar or club or booking agent would call I used that to our advantage (after booking 3 gigs) I would say sorry we are all booked for that month. Well folks that just makes them want you more! We all want what we can't get RIGHT?

You're completely right in everything that you just said, J_HALEY, but as you said, you were dealing with a different market. Furthermore, with someone of your experience at the helm, I almost have to believe that Cruise Control was a better band than Barometric Pressure. As stated, you couldn't even find us on-line, then or now. We may have been listed on some bar's website at some point in the past, but that would have been about it.

Shoot, we had to play Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Columbus because there was absolutely no market for our sound in the general area in which I live. We came about five years too early, the Metal/Alternative/Punk scene around here is not great, but, much better.

I'd like to think I would have played it the right way as my occupation is 50% sales now, but unfortunately, my band never had the advantages that Cruise Control not only inherently had, (area) but also worked hard for by being an excellent band.

In short, venues booked you because they could say, "We have Cruise Control tonight," they booked us because they could say, "We have a band tonight!"

Kruliosis, Your guitar player IMO has crossed the line! The best way to handle bookings (the way I always have). When you feel you guys are about ready to play you get a calendar. In the calendar you tell the rest of your bandmates you guys need to black out the dates you are not going to be able to play for the next 4 months. You also explain to them that it is hard enough for me to get the Club managers/owners attention and when I do I am going to book it! I AM NOT GOING to contact you guys except to say we are booked on THIS DATE! If the guy's you are playing with are not forward thinking and considerate of you as the leader enough to appreciate what you ARE DOING FOR THEM then I would QUIETLY find their replacement or do what I eventually did and inform them "guy's the band is breaking up"

Absolutely.

I quoted this because this advice should be on the page 30 times. I'll go ahead and leave it at twice.

Pierce, the band I am in is new JUST LIKE you guy's and we are getting paid $600.00 and we are a 3 piece band with a lead singer. Our sound man is an equal member! We split the money 5 ways and some of us are bitching! We are worth WAYyy more! You have to start somewhere! Have you seen the video link I have posted (iphone video) IMO we are worth a minimum of $1000.00 a night and next year we will get it! The money we are currently earning is an average this year. on 1/9/12 we are playing in Las Vegas (corporate gig) we have done 2 gigs for this company this year and they are paying $7000.00 for our band to play!

Jeff,

Look at yourself, brother! You're out there Talkboxing it like it's nobody's business, I doubt if our lead guitarist knew what a Talkbox is!!! Your solo on, "Lights," was completely out of this world, my friend, you're just an incredible guitar player. I'd pay darn good money just to see YOU, and you've still got a darn good support crew.

Your lead singer is awesome. I'm not going to say he is better than me (the voices/styles are so different, it really can't be compared) but I can say he sure as heck can do a lot more than I can. Now, "Lights," is probably not his best song...but he was great at everything else. How many guys can convincingly belt out, "Highway to Hell?" Singing, "Highway to Hell," correctly is amazing because it requires a good singer to sound bad, but to sound bad correctly. The dude crushed it on, "Brick House," do you know how few people can do that right?

Besides, everyone must know about Cruise Control, so, you've already got a great reputation amongst all of those venues.

I'm not trying to argue with you, you're a great guy and better musician on here offering sage advice, but you're from an excellent Hard Rock/Classic Rock band whereas I fronted an average Metal band and was a vocalist that did other than screamed all the time, and they want the screaming, not the singing, and I gave them the singing 75% of the time.

Congratulations on that corporate gig! That's a very lucrative gig, and they're getting more than their money's worth considering the travel expenses, but you're getting paid well, so that's a good deal for both sides.

I guess I should mention that not EVERY gig we did was low-paying. Even though Heavy Metal/Punk themed weddings are unusual, we did manage to get booked for two such wedding receptions, and we charged $1,000 for a four-hour set with two fifteen minute breaks. Of course, we paid for it with preparation time because we were presented with a list of songs (two weeks later than we were supposed to have gotten it) and there were at least three songs on the list that NOBODY in the band had heard of.

Further, the list of songs they gave us would have been, like, an eight hour set with no breaks! I'm talking about if you just played them straight through!!! It was very difficult to convince these people that every song contains a certain amount of minutes and seconds, and those minutes and seconds equal a total. Further, if we are to play a four-hour set with two fifteen-minute breaks, in tune, and you want me to have a voice the whole time, then that total needs to be between 2:45-3:00.

Of course, they can't decide what songs to get rid of, "Oh, just pick whatever you play best," and then next thing you know they want reimbursement because some songs didn't get played!!!

Well, we asked you, three times, "Are any of these songs, 'must-play,' songs." You said, "No, just do whatever you play best."

....What the H*** was I talking about?

God, weddings are aggravating.

Oh yeah, I remember, you guys (and you in particular) are awesome and we were pretty good.

Pierce, I have been what I call a semi-pro for over 30 years. In other words I have played for money for that many years. Jerry our singer can sing lights better than any singer I have EVER worked with! This is my favorite band! Keep in mind this video is condensed down. Hey bro! I am just a guitar picker JUST like your guy! I put my pants on one leg at a time just like he does! Most folks don't understand that if you are going to be a musician,

I am going to BOTTOM LINE IT FOR YOU FOLKS, It takes ONLY 2 THINGS!

Patient and compromise! if you or your band mate's are lacking one or the other It is OVER!