General Music Chat

btw...

With gambling casinos and a vigorous tourism trade, Indian reservations do quite well economically. There are 300 Indian Reservations throughout the United States, having a land mass of 55 MILLION acres, representing 2.3% of geographical land mass in the U.S.

Their population represents 1.5%

While they are overseen by The Bureau Of Indian Affairs, tribal councils make their local laws, and they have various forms of government, decided by native americans themselves on the various reservations.

I agree with some of what you just said, Craig.

Moslems, for the most part, do not live by thier predecessors' views that they should kill all infidels. I believe I said that, myself, a time or two.

The thing that rouses thier anger is when we intervene in thier domestic affairs, like we do so often, as I showed by my little list.

I still maintain that it is our actions that cause most of the trouble. Not thiers, in spite of thier religion's call to arms.

It is entirely possible that extremists will try to take over Iraq if we leave it now. That still doesn't convince me that we have the moral obligation to hold the country just because we're concerned about it.

Actually, Kramer's suggestion, that we keep a few camps there for a few years, to help if things get out of hand, makes sense to me. I could live with that.

I cannot accept that we may have to stay for "100 years" or that we should maintain a military presense on a daily basis to frighten off the terrorists. I think it's arrogant & invasive, & doesn't give them the chance to build what could possibly be the next great social order.

Leave 'em alone. Help them if they ask for it.

Crush them if they attack us.

But to say that our form of gov't is the end-all be-all of all societies is kinda juvenile, too.

In a democracy, you can only vote on the issues that you understand, & are aware of.

In our own, we know very little about world affairs from what we get on our news, and the reports from our gov't are somewhat lacking, as well. We frequently leave it to our gov't to make these decisions, & trust that they will do the right thing. (I'm waiting for that "tell-all" book to come out to explain to me exactly why we went in in the 1st place. I don't think it will look favorably on us, judging from what I've seen over the last 60+ years.)

To take our form of gov't, & force it on a populace that is under-educated in our view of "basic human rights" will most likely result in less than better ways, imo, as all thier votes will tend to rely on thier religious views, & the propagandas that war with each other from Osama's camp & our own. Which camp do you think they'll be more likely to follow after thier daily view of our actions throughout this occupation?

We've set up an interim gov't. Now is the time for us to say, "Ok folks. We have done what we can. Now it's up to you to rebuild your own country in ways that are better than what you had before. Here are some of the things we did that worked for us. Find your own way. We'll be right over here to help if you need us."

That would be a much better approach than to tell them they must follow our example of gov't cuz it's the best in the world, & much better than anything they could come up with on thier own. If they want to "vote in a king," I say we should let them.

Further meddling in thier affiars is the very last thing they need, imo. Give them some space to do what they can for themselves.

The more we can assure the Islamic world, & the entire world at large, that we will not meddle in thier affairs would go a very long way toward repairing the damage done by our "granfalloonery" in the past.

This may be the only time you hear me say this...but there oughta be a law!! No more meddling!

btw...

With gambling casinos and a vigorous tourism trade, Indian reservations do quite well economically. There are 300 Indian Reservations throughout the United States, having a land mass of 55 MILLION acres, representing 2.3% of geographical land mass in the U.S.

Their population represents 1.5%

While they are overseen by The Bureau Of Indian Affairs, tribal councils make their local laws, and they have various forms of government, decided by native americans themselves on the various reservations.

REeservations are NOT doing quite well man, you're reading statistics posted by the US Gvmt, go ask a few natives how life on the rez is.

Yeah they have lots of land... a bunch of dried up desert that wouldn't sustain a family of scorpions..

I'm not gonna argue about it, just try getting both sides of this story.

REeservations are NOT doing quite well man, you're reading statistics posted by the US Gvmt, go ask a few natives how life on the rez is.

Yeah they have lots of land... a bunch of dried up desert that wouldn't sustain a family of scorpions..

I'm not gonna argue about it, just try getting both sides of this story.

Well, I agree that this will hold true more for some than others, as the reservations are autonomous. The ones that have legalized gambling have a huge influx of cash revenue, whereas the ones that do not, the Navajo may be among these, not sure, do not do as well.

Gambling brings them billions of dollars a year.

One report I saw stated that the prospects for Native americans are bright and increase yearly, not just in gambling but business revenues.

It states...

"In 1990, Native American buying power was estimated at $17 billion, in 2000 at $39.1 billion, in 2006 at $53.9 billion and in 2011, is projected to reach $73 billion annually."

So their economies seem to improve exponentially.

I think they could have suffered much worse, considering. Many powers, especially at that time, could have just killed ALL of them, or enslaved them, rather than allowing them land and providing basic autonomy. Yes, some lands were fertile and others not, but they could have fared MUCH worse.

There are apparently some 300 casinos run by native americans, but not all of these are successful. Some are HUGELY succesful, as witnessed, when the Florida Seminoles purchased the Hard Rock Café chain for $965 million in 2006. Yes, Indians own the Hard Rock Cafe chain.

On other reservations many Indians are at or below the poverty level, and largely depending on goverment subsidies. This is true.

But I think these situations have as much to do with their own lack of individual advancement, than it does anything the nation is responsible for. If you try and maintain an archaic civilization in a modern world, how well can that work? And for how long?

In the past they had horses and hunted for food.

Awesome!

With medicaid and medicare, they are not starving, that I know of. It may be time for them to educate themselves more, make better business arrangements and decisions, tap into the considerable wealth of natural resources their teepee's and RV's are sitting on, and generally accept the modern world.

You guys that think that ANY primitive culture should somehow be preserved for all time, are just funny. Why do that? So you can visit them like animals at the zoo? Most species, in order to survive, evolve. When a species remains unchanged for millions or even billions of years, it is because, their form and function WORKS, and is already built well for survival. The rest of us, must adapt. To fight this, is just as ludicrous as country folk who believe their job at an auto plant or lumber yard, should exist forever, whether it is in the company's best interest or not. The world doesn't owe you a living.

Evolution means adapting to changing circumstances. Things that refuse to change, eventually die out. Survival is our own responsibility, not general motors'. Don't buy that new car, or that new CD collection. Put it aside. Work extra jobs, and invest the extra. Go to college. Prepare your life for the future. Don't expect that some company is supposed to hire you and change your diapers for the rest of your life. Living in major cities most of my life, I have seen personally, how people from other countries come here and prosper better than I have myself. They work at it. Some latinos come here and live like we do, and succeed only marginally, others come here and are responsible and end up owning successful businesses in only 5 years or so. This truly is, the land of opportunity. But we are easily lazy in this country about saving and investing for the future. Kids without much schooling, can leave home and earn enough to provide their basic needs and party on weekends, and that's what MANY of them do. It's what I did, until I got into my 30's. But people who come here from impoverished countries are usually amazed at our complacency and our bitching and whining about how "bad" things are. They don't get us. They work their asses off, save money, and surpass many americans in no time. Nothing stops US from doing the same, but us!

LOL...Craig...heaven help you if you ever have to make those minor "adaptations" ..."archaic civilization" indeed!

You make it all sound so easy, so simple, as you glibbly speak of how a civilization must adapt...I doubt very much that we, as a ppl, are very "adaptable" at all, in comparison to these "savage archaic civilizations".

Some "Indians" had a rule to cover change that went something like..."We'll think on it, & determine the effect on the next 10 generations. If it looks like it will work, we'll adopt it."

Imagine that! You want to build a car? What will be the effects on your ppl, on the environment, say, in 300 years?

We wouldn't be having any of these discussions if the entire world lived as these "savages" did.

Nah, it's "better" that they be pulled into the 21st century with us...or is that "pulled down" with us?

We have become so dependent on our own technology that we cannot imagine life without it. What will happen when the electricity fails, when the oil stops flowing, etc? Many ppl tell me that only through technology can we "save the planet"...that we can "save ourselves." That always gives me the giggles.

I say t'would be much better to prepare oneself for the loss of our precious technologies....to learn how to preserve our foods again, without using a fridge or a freezer or vacuum-sealed plastic-wrap...to learn how to micromanage the land to live on it & off of its fruits...to learn how to return to the "savage" and "archaic" lifestyle...because the worst thing that could happen to this country would be the loss of its power - no communications, no meds to speak of, no work available, no transportation other than your feet or your horse...wow what a mess...& it could all be accomplished with a few well-placed nukes...so you go ahead & save your money, Craig...it'll be useless too, if this scenario occurs...oh, & btw, do you think these "savages" will owe you a living or a helping hand, just because you offered them medicare & welfare & a pile of rocks ro scrape out a living on?

That is when the owners of the biggest guns & the biggest pile of ammunition will determine who's boss, right? Sounds pretty "savage" to me.

It's conceivable that it could happen in our lifetime. There have been a few prophets who said so, anyway, if you go in for that sort of thing.

If & when it does, only time will determine how "savage", how "archaic," & how adaptable a civilization will be.

Phil,

I think it is dishonest when you put words in my mouth.

Find ANYWHERE, where I used the term "savages". I said archaic. Native Americans were not enlightened where science is concerned, but were very advanced, at least to me, where spirituality is concerned. That is a value worth preserving, not living on dirt floors, and rejecting science and technology. Life expectancy since the 1800's has more than doubled. Living in a teepee and picking ticks off one another did not accomplish this. Greater scientific understanding has. Many things threaten life on Earth, from meteors plunging us into another ice age, to overpopulation. It is not inconceivable that one day in the future, we will venture out into the cosmos and establish our species on another planet.

I understand the warm and fuzzy concept of getting back to basics, and living a simpler life. Theodore Kaczynski was seeking something similar when he moved to a shack in Montana and lived somewhat self-sufficiently, before he became the unibomber and started sending bombs through the mail, to "save" all the rest of us from technology. You haven't been studying his "manifesto" lately have you?

It's my Bible, Craig! However did you know?

LMAO!

Hey, there was that other guy, used to be a lawyer or something....he moved to Alaska & built a little cabin. He filmed it all, & it's been shown on PBS for years...he stayed there, like, 30 years after he'd retired, & only left when he was 83, & couldn't haul wood for heat anymore. Imagine...30 years with only an occasional plane bringing in some supplies, & no other ppl around.

I thought it was cool, anyway.

Sorry, Craig. You're right. Putting words in other ppl's mouths IS dishonest, & unsanitary, too!

I recalled your sentences that went;

"Look at the cute jungle people! Their culture is so pristine, so valuable, let's take pictures, honor them, and leave them in the jungles, and go back to the comforts and security of civilization."

"People who were considered uncivilized, living in jungles and without a system of writing, and formal types of government, and particularly no means of sufficient defense, are not going to hold onto the lands they hunt and live on, when much more advanced civilizations come calling."

So I assumed that's what you meant. I was wrong about that.

Then again, I wasn't actually quoting you when I put the word in quotes. I used the quotes in a more general form, like OTHER ppl think they're "savages" but I don't agree, really, ya know?

You're a sensitive guy, Craig. I like that. It's fun to get you all riled up.

If it helps you write songs, then I'll keep it up. Just to help, you understand!