General Music Chat

An interesting thread about goals and direction that a lot of musicians miss. It really is simpler than you might think:

Figure out who you want to play to... who your musical audience is, and play music they like. If your audience is blueshounds and there are enough of them, and you know where they are, you can always get paid.

If your musical audience is jazzbos and you know where they are, get in there and play jazz they will find interesting.

If your musical audience is high-octane stadium rock fans, and you know where they are, play music they can rock-out to.

If you have no musical audience. No significant number of fans who want to listen to the music you make. Your music may still be significant but realize you may never get paid. Van Gogh never sold a painting in his lifetime so he was truly a starving artist. His art was clearly significant though.

In Bob's case, playing original music may be a dream come true for Bob but knowing where the fans are will be important if he wants to get paid for his services. The local "dive bar" that no longer wishes to pay ASCAP fees is dying and withering away. Not enough regular business to warrant the fees so tying your success to this place is like lashing yourself to a sinking ship. Not the best business plan. Soon enough they will no longer be able to pay the talent.
The trick is to find the places that successfully pack the room with your fan base and get in there.

The sad model in LA is hundreds of death metal bands with no audience. They spend $10k (of borrowed money) to do an album of forgettable songs, pay-to-play off nights in dying "former glory" Hollywood clubs to no one but their devoted family members and girlfriends. The goal of course is for a Sony A&R guy to come in, sweep them off their feet with a 7 year $10mil recording contract. Never gonna happen. They attract no audience and those A&R guys were laid off 10 years ago.

Bottom line, play music that attracts an audience if you want to get paid. Regularly get in front of an audience that will bring their friends next time because they are moved by your music. If you attract an audience wherever you play, a regular paycheck is in your near future.

Generating referral/spinoff business and tips from every gig is a big clue that your music is working. Closing a dive bar with only you and the bartender left is an equally important clue.

As usual, some good, relevant and real life points there Johnny. We actually turn down more gigs than we take these days, mostly because many places don't care if the band makes any money, they just need bands to fill a slot. You can book gigs every weekend if you want, but if you can't get enough people to come out it's just a glorified rehearsal. We are being more choosy and only playing shows when there is enough "demand" - about once a month. Meanwhile we are ramping up the cover band, which will play more often for more money.

Thanks for the props Jimmy. You and I, Ted, Jeff, John and others have been playing this game for a long time. We have all experienced some musical successes and we have all been kicked around some.

Finding success in music is not all that different than playing chess, football, hockey... name your game. Visualize a realistic goal and figure out how to get there. Not every move will be forward but if you plan carefully, pay attention as things progress, and stay on track you can get there.

Bottom line, play music that attracts an audience if you want to get paid. .

well yea...there is that.


It can be original music or covers as long as it's excellent.

An interesting thread about goals and direction that a lot of musicians miss. It really is simpler than you might think:

Figure out who you want to play to... who your musical audience is, and play music they like. If your audience is blueshounds and there are enough of them, and you know where they are, you can always get paid.

If your musical audience is jazzbos and you know where they are, get in there and play jazz they will find interesting.

If your musical audience is high-octane stadium rock fans, and you know where they are, play music they can rock-out to.

If you have no musical audience. No significant number of fans who want to listen to the music you make. Your music may still be significant but realize you may never get paid. Van Gogh never sold a painting in his lifetime so he was truly a starving artist. His art was clearly significant though.

In Bob's case, playing original music may be a dream come true for Bob but knowing where the fans are will be important if he wants to get paid for his services. The local "dive bar" that no longer wishes to pay ASCAP fees is dying and withering away. Not enough regular business to warrant the fees so tying your success to this place is like lashing yourself to a sinking ship. Not the best business plan. Soon enough they will no longer be able to pay the talent.
The trick is to find the places that successfully pack the room with your fan base and get in there.

The sad model in LA is hundreds of death metal bands with no audience. They spend $10k (of borrowed money) to do an album of forgettable songs, pay-to-play off nights in dying "former glory" Hollywood clubs to no one but their devoted family members and girlfriends. The goal of course is for a Sony A&R guy to come in, sweep them off their feet with a 7 year $10mil recording contract. Never gonna happen. They attract no audience and those A&R guys were laid off 10 years ago.

Bottom line, play music that attracts an audience if you want to get paid. Regularly get in front of an audience that will bring their friends next time because they are moved by your music. If you attract an audience wherever you play, a regular paycheck is in your near future.

Generating referral/spinoff business and tips from every gig is a big clue that your music is working. Closing a dive bar with only you and the bartender left is an equally important clue.

Can you help me find some Jazzhounds and Bluesbos?

Your advice makes good sense... Its a matter of narrowing your specialization/market to what you do best. (I believe that Ted mentioned a similar suggestion on another thread, last year.

FYI , Tonight I'll be attending a Blues open mic to do a cover and two originals . It so happens, that I mentioned this on FB, stating to readers to come down and catch the originals, and that "a good time will be had by all".

Amazingly, I have been receiving responses to that posting...People apparently are interested in original. Having said that, it occurs to me that if these folks show up tonight, I will have established some draw to the bar.

I imagine that with Bob's professional level of experience, reputation + original songs... There should be no issue about getting paid.

I am surrounded by awesome musicians...they do this for free everyweek, and I am quite certain that on Wed nights, the bar could not make a dime without them... Yet, the bar owner does not offer 'anything' to the coordinators and musicians that make this happen... Typical disrespect....

Yet, the bar owner does not offer 'anything' to the coordinators and musicians that make this happen... Typical disrespect....

Well, in his defense, it's tough all over. Be grateful you have a venue!

Everyone is working a little harder these days. If you guys can turn his place into a semi-paid practice hall it's better than renting and gives you a base to build your music. There will come a time for ultimatums when the place is packed regularly. If he doesn't play ball then, you take your business across town and let him dry.

By the way, Wendy is definitely willing to do a seminar in El Paso for your local songwriter group when I get her to Texas sometime later this year. If you guys create an original music scene there (not as impossible as you might think) there will be no reason to leave town because the business folk will come to you.

El Paso has a sort-of exotic attraction being half-way Mexico; and it's on I-10 for anyone driving coast to coast. I really think you could create something unique there as a songwriter group, to ride the coat-tails of Austin's scene.

Yet, the bar owner does not offer 'anything' to the coordinators and musicians that make this happen... Typical disrespect....

Well, in his defense, it's tough all over. Be grateful you have a venue!

Everyone is working a little harder these days. If you guys can turn his place into a semi-paid practice hall it's better than renting and gives you a base to build your music. There will come a time for ultimatums when the place is packed regularly. If he doesn't play ball then, you take your business across town and let him dry.

By the way, Wendy is definitely willing to do a seminar in El Paso for your local songwriter group when I get her to Texas sometime later this year. If you guys create an original music scene there (not as impossible as you might think) there will be no reason to leave town because the business folk will come to you.

El Paso has a sort-of exotic attraction being half-way Mexico; and it's on I-10 for anyone driving coast to coast. I really think you could create something unique there as a songwriter group, to ride the coat-tails of Austin's scene.

Yes, but Ted, you have to understand, things move very very slow here... Also, I'm not looking to carve out a crater in El Paso with this. I'm actually trying to build an long standing institution for the arts & entertainment community here in EP. This takes care and precision, thought and plan and time.

I am NOT about windfall and then blowing outta town. A few months ago, some guy, (who wants to be the center of information for the El Paso, Las Cruces Music scene) approached me. Wanted to take my entire idea online. I'm trying to get away from that bullshit and bring three dimension back into the craft of music making... I told him thanks , but I wasn't interested in killing my own contest. I don't 'do' laptop presentation of these kids song's. I use a real stage, real mics, and real instruments... replete with real people. I'm not running an American Idol show...thus not interested in doing live feeds at the moment. Needless to say, I aint heard back from the guy

The best thing I can suggest , is perhaps to have miss Wendy simply call me so we can chat. I have no idea at this point what she is about , who she is, or how it fits together. But I'd be more than happy to get acquainted with her and see what happens from there.


My Contest resumes on March 21. All YAll are invited

I'm not looking to carve out a crater in El Paso with this. I'm actually trying to build an long standing institution for the arts & entertainment community here in EP. This takes care and precision, thought and plan and time.

EP is already a crater. You could use outside help to change that. "A long standing institution for the arts & entertainment community" doesn't take any more thought/care/planning than the ones in L.A. & Nashville that Wendy was a part of building.

I am NOT about windfall and then blowing outta town. A few months ago, some guy, (who wants to be the center of information for the El Paso, Las Cruces Music scene) approached me. Wanted to take my entire idea online. I'm trying to get away from that bullshit and bring three dimension back into the craft of music making... I told him thanks , but I wasn't interested in killing my own contest. I don't 'do' laptop presentation of these kids song's. I use a real stage, real mics, and real instruments... replete with real people. I'm not running an American Idol show...thus not interested in doing live feeds at the moment. Needless to say, I aint heard back from the guy

I have no idea why you said that or what it was about?

I have no idea at this point what she is about , who she is, or how it fits together. But I'd be more than happy to get acquainted with her and see what happens from there.


My Contest resumes on March 21. All YAll are invited

Grant, I don't think you realize the huge favor I'm offering. She's been in high demand, teaching songwriter seminars for ASCAP many years now. (I suggest the college-level class on songwriting history going back to the 11th century)

If you want your songwriting group in El Paso to bear fruit beyond the city borders, Wendy is the kind of person that can raise the profile immediately. When it comes to songwriting and songwriters, she's the legitimate big time and there aren't many who are more loved/respected in the biz. No one has a higher pedigree....not to mention her status as a Producer.

If there is any talent in El Paso, a good word from her and scouts will be coming from LA, Nashville, and NYC. Having her name associated with your group would lend instant credibility and it would be nationwide, if not international.

Several major labels and the biggest publishers in Gnashvile have been begging her to come and write/co-write with their artists for a few years now, so she going to spend the month of April in Gnashvile and I have suggested she drive instead of flying in order to play a few places along the way. I'm looking for only about 3 or 4 places between LA and Gnashville for her to stop on the way out there and then again on the way back in early May.

If you'd like El Paso to be one of them, we ought to (quickly) see if there is a date that makes sense. Once that is determined, I'll be happy to hook you up with a phone call from Wendy to talk about it.

Ted, in all fairness, I have never heard of her...But that doesn't mean I'm scoffing... Here's the deal.. What you are offering is great, and I'll tell you that right now, its way too premature for my situation. I barely have the vine started , you are offering to press out vats of wine. (quickly, no less) . I dont even have internal followin or enough local street creds, and you want me to expand this beyond the borders. Its all good, but I'm saying its not ready yet. There will be a time when it makes sense. But not presently.

If Ms Wendy is interested in doing a Workshop Seminar in El Paso, she should just do it anyway, on her schedule, in her own fashion... (regardless of my involvement or not.)
What I can do then, is tell everybody I know that she's the top of her game and that songwriters should definitely attend her seminar. What she can do then, in exchange, is suggest to her students to support the contest by signing up. Its really that simple... That will help me tremendously on the local creds front. Then I actually got something I can bring over the borders...

yeah, whatev on all that workshop stuff. grant, what i want to know is can you get my trio a decent gig out there?

hehehe....i kid. well...sort of.

OK, Grant. Definitely not trying to talk you into doing something that would end disastrously. I don't think it could, but I've made a mistake once or twice.

My philosophy is always carpe diem, please forgive me if that seems pushy.