General Chat (Non-Music-Related)

JimmyD

Let me pose a question. You stated that it's unlikely more than 1 in a hundred can escape the social class into which they are born.

If that is true, the question is: was that always true? (I'm not clear on this myself)

And if not - is it possible that those who have the where with all to improve their status have done so; the rest are well, sort of non-productive leftovers?

Applying the logic of abortion: un-needed, unwanted, inconvenient, born into lousy world etc, shouldn't we then, kill the poor?

Talbot

JimmyD

Damn man. You do cut to the chase.

I wrote a piece once for a black Libertarian Journal where they figured I might have a clue for having lived there. Concept: What could Africa do to move ahead?

I suggested then and I suggest now for the poor of this world - do something - there are areas opening up constantly. All or most of the current tech will be obsolete seen. Do like China - start where we left off. Compete.

But there is a nasty back story: a) most poverty ridden subcultures consider smarts to be uncool, b) the best thinkers and producers in poverty ridden countries tend to emigrate.

I hope that doesn't mean we're back to your solution!

Talbot

The right does not like to take care of poor people.

I think this is the biggest lie of a stereo-type being perpetrated on you, bro....I really do. I've learned from hanging out with liberals most of my life that the stereo-types on both sides are extreme views that don't really represent the people who get lumped with them. But this lie is most pernicious...

Speaking for most the people I know who are "right" (pun intended! ) when it comes to "helping poor people" you and I are only divided by a difference of opinion on the best way and who really needs help.

In my opinion, it comes down to whether you trust the individual or the government more; yet I see a strange irony in the extremes of these views. It seems that those who trust individuals more than government vote for what is best for individuals collectively, while those who trust in collective control of the government tend to vote for what is better for themselves individually.

The left seems to think that throwing a lot of government money at a problem can solve the problems of individuals, but the pattern and certainty of failure has been the same since at least the 1960s; We raise taxes to pay for a bureaucracy. Though the new bureaucracy fails to make any improvement, the Statists cry for more money (but no accountability!) while the next Administrations starts a new Federal program to do what this one failed at. More money is not the solution; accountability at the top is.

I think all the money involved in these social handouts and nanny-State care schemes only produces bribery for corrupt politicians. Meanwhile, the people who are supposed to be helped end up getting the exact opposite of what human dignity and self-respect demands....a purpose in life. They end up being serfs of the State and the generational cycle of poverty-in-the-land-of-plenty begins.

I'm sure that you're mature enough to know the struggles of life produce character, and sometimes enabling someone to continue on the path they've chosen is not really helping them in the long run. I'm sure you'd agree that some people just need to learn the hard way, while others plan and prepare diligently. And there are always those who want to cheat their way through life. Helping them is hurting others. Why is it wrong to apply this wisdom to how anyone (even the government) should approach helping the poor? How the right "feels about poor people" is a bit more complex than you've been led to believe, evidently.

It would be better if we both assumed that most people (regardless of Party) really do want the right thing. It's the politicians leading us around by emotions and lies that have us resenting people we have never met.

JimmyD

What could Africa do to move ahead?

there is a nasty back story: a) most poverty ridden subcultures consider smarts to be uncool, b) the best thinkers and producers in poverty ridden countries tend to emigrate.

I hope that doesn't mean we're back to your solution!

Talbot

Applying the logic of abortion: un-needed, unwanted, inconvenient, born into lousy world etc, shouldn't we then, kill the poor?

hmmmm...then according to the extrapolations you made from Jimmy's logic...we should kill the people of Africa to save them from being poor.

Giving due honor, Jimmy would never suggest or even hint at that, but I do see how you could arrive at that from the logic he's using.




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The question becomes, what to do with all of the poor. Take care of them? The right does not like to take care of poor people. The best idea to me is to prevent or limit poor people from reproducing. Contraceptives should be free, as should tubal ligation and other permanent birth control methods. The world can only support a finite number of people

well, another thing the right is not a great supporter of is sex education.

and the idea of FREE CONTRAPTIVES made readily and easily available????? PERISH THE THOUGHT! better to have unwanted pregnancies, the spread of disease, and oh, yeah...that sh*t that kills ya...A.I.D.S.

Mark, the right believes in personal responsibility. If you make bad choices you're going to face bad consequences for those bad choices. We don't believe our pay checks should be dipped into to pay for everyone else's bad choices. If you pull a gun on a cop get shot or killed you're not a victim of anything. If you have unprotected sex you could catch an STD, get pregnant, or make someone pregnant. Why in the world does that make the right bad? Please explain!

good and bad are values judgements.

i simply believe it's foolhardy to expect anyone... especially young people... to make good choices when they're not properly educated.

expecting young teens to make the "right choices" because you believe they should because the bible/god tells them too is just irresponsible recklessness.

but then.... when "wrong choices" have to be made afterwards.....std's, abortion, or moms not doing right by their children..it DOES allow another opportunity for some to claim the moral higher ground and cast judgement.

instead of giving young people the tools to make better choices and be safe....why instead take the course of just expecting them to do because jesus expects them to?

Mark, the right believes in personal responsibility.

as do i. do you really believe that i or others on the left don't??????

do you really think jimmy, gtrmike, dayne, or anyone here w views leftwards of your's DOESN'T believe in personal responsibilty? ...and lives our life that way?


sorry, jeff..if you really believe that i'd be surprised and disappointed.

It is not my fault that other folks don't teach or help educate their children. The right believes give a man a fish for a day and he eats for a day teach him to fish and he eats for life. IMO the left just wants to give him fish for life!
The actions of the left have proven time after time ya'll do NOT believe in personal responsibility. You defend otherwise my friend.

maybe not PERSONALLY your fault but that illustrates how all too many on the right lack compassion and are too quick to blame the victim for where they end up.

sorry, but as much as you'd like to believe that everyone has an equal chance and we all start at the same starting line...sadly that AIN'T the case. not everyone has the same opportunities. or good parents. if they're lucky enough to have parents at all.

so, because someone didn't have parents who showed them right from wrong....SCREW 'EM. after all YOUR parents taught YOU right from wrong! it's not YOUR responsibility to try to educate them or help them improve their lot in life.

that's some compassionless $hit right there, bro...and one of the big differences between the left and right.

yep, you got your's...screw everyone else. afterall....it's THEIR fault.

and you know what...i'll be the first to say it....sometimes, even OFTEN....yes, it IS their fault. but that across the board dismissive writing them off...from too many on the right, that's a big difference in our ideologies.

Jeff, not only do we believe in personal responsibility just as the right does, we also believe it is a woman's right to decide if she wants to be a mother. .

So do we!?!

The difference is that we think she has that right before she has taken part in creating a new human.

This is the ultimate in personal responsibility

After she and a man have made that choice, they should be responsible for making that choice. That's a part of life they can not escape in any other area, so why is this issue any different?

Answer: because the Abortion Industry is making billions of dollars and paying off politicians with the windfall profits.

If they rob a bank, they are held responsible
If they go bankrupt with credit cards, they are held responsible.
If they have student loans, they are held responsible
If they run over someone in their car, they are held responsible
If they kill someone else's child, they are held responsible (even if that child is still in the womb!)

And sorry if it wasn't clear before, but I don't support abortion as birth control at ANY time. I'm not saying that we should criminalize young women who make poor judgement errors, but I am saying that there is always a better alternative than murdering an innocent person.

Being held responsible doesn't mean "punish" except when its the Left. For example, Obama doesn't want his daughter to be "punished" with a baby.

On the right, we believe mercy is the most important attribute of justice. "Judgement" is done for the purpose of restoration, not punishment. Holding someone responsible is for THEIR good, not mine. It is always easier to shirk my responsibility towards someone else who made a bad choice.

It's ironic, but if you check you'd find that the number of abortions happening every year is almost the same number of people trying to adopt. Why shouldn't that be the first option? Why are they afraid that the mother might change her mind and raise that baby when they see it born? Answer: because the Abortion industry (Doctors and Lawyers) wouldn't profit.





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