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For sure composing just lends itself to doing it on the piano .

In my new 'acoustic' band we've got 2 guitars and a keyboard. The keyboard guy is the main singer, and doesn't play on all songs - he also does percussion, including a cajon. And I play bass for half the songs, but will also play keyboards on a couple of songs once we get that far with our set list. But this is different than your usual bar - electric guitar band.

Well, for a start, they [Boston] didn't have any keyboards,

You guys wonder why you can't find keys players that want to work with you, and yet you can't even use your ears well enough to hear what's on the album. Just what instrument do YOU think that is at the beginning of Foreplay/Longtime?

Keyboard player here, posted on this thread a few years back. My perspective has changed since then.

Since demand greatly exceeds supply, I -- as a reasonably proficient keyboard dude -- can afford to be somewhat selective when joining with others. If your gang doesn't have their act together, I'm not going to wait around in the vain hope that someday it might improve.

I'd like to echo the earlier comments that becoming proficient on keyboards can be relatively hard, takes a lot of time, and a lot of money. Contrary to popular perception, a proficient keyboard player has to be proficient on multiple instruments, each of which just happens to have black and white keys.

In addition to nailing acoustic piano and electric piano literature, I have to bring decent B3 organ technique, not to mention clavs, sampled horns, accordion, synths, etc. Each of these requires a different approach to technique, phrasing, chording, etc. A good piano player doesn't make for a good organ player doesn't make for a good synth player.

It takes a while to learn it all.

And the entry fees can be quite high.

I play with a weighted stage piano below, and an unweighted board above. Decent examples of both will set you back at least $4K, maybe more. Keyboards -- especially acoustic pianos -- are notoriously difficult to amplify, so bring on a pair of self-powered PA cabs. Another $1.5k. Stand, seat, mixer, cables, pedals -- you easily can drop $6k into a keyboard rig, and still think of it as your "starter" setup.

And you have to bring it all with you everywhere you go: gigs, rehearsals, etc. There is no "small" version. Wear and tear is an issue as well. Beer spills, rain, dust, etc. are not our friends.

Me and the drummer have similar amounts of equipment. It takes me at least 20 minutes to set up, and another 20 minutes to break down. Not to mention a large-ish vehicle to haul it all around with. So, yeah, when I agree to show up to play, it's a substantial investment in time and money. If it isn't fun, I won't be doing it for long.

Love the two bands that I'm currently in (most of the time, that is), but have checked out many dozens of "keyboard wanted" situations over the years. Almost all have been non-starters.

Some big turn-offs to avoid?

- Poor musicianship and lack of skills. Hey, we're all getting better, but if you're painful to listen to ...
- No ears for what others are playing. It's a band, not a bunch of guys with instruments in their hands.
- Insisting that I "be committed" and have no other music projects that could potentially compete. Yeah, right.
- Unwillingness to take feedback from others, being defensive, etc. You'll never get better that way.
- General flakiness. Being intoxicated when playing. Too much drama.
- Musical dictators. Unless you're paying me real $$$, which you're not.

I know a few other keyboard folks who are also proficient, and they tend to share similar perspectives.

That being said, having a decent keyboard player in your band really makes your sound stand out from all the guitar-grinding bands on the bar circuit. You now have a much wider palette of songs to choose from. You'll find it easier to attract a female vocalist if that's your goal. The entire sound gets bigger, fatter and richer.

Even if all you play is basic blues.

We may be pains in the butt, but we're worth it

Well, for a start, they [Boston] didn't have any keyboards,

You guys wonder why you can't find keys players that want to work with you, and yet you can't even use your ears well enough to hear what's on the album. Just what instrument do YOU think that is at the beginning of Foreplay/Longtime?

Tom Sholz was a guitarist who also played the keys when needed. No different than me - I would never call myself a keyboardist.
For their 3rd album tour they brought on two more players who added keys, extra drums, whatever was needed for the live performances.

So now there are 3 players, all of whom are saying exactly the same thing. Perhaps this will be of some value to anyone wondering why they can't get someone to play what they want, how they want and commit 100% to their fantasy. We have those, too, and more often than not, they don't match up w/ yours--not that you even gave ours a thought. So explain to us again--in the absence of mass quantities of $$$--why we should subjugate ourselves to your desires?

Beyond that, there are some good points worth noting...

A good piano player doesn't make for a good organ player doesn't make for a good synth player.

So true. I'm at my best as a pianist, and that's what I enjoy. I can play an organ well enough, but don't really consider myself in that vein. There's another fellow around Tampa who plays a B3 exclusively and he's superior to me...until we switch to the piano. Then it's a diff story. Don't assume all instruments that have black & white keys are the same.

I play with a weighted stage piano below, and an unweighted board above. Decent examples of both will set you back at least $4K, maybe more. Keyboards -- especially acoustic pianos -- are notoriously difficult to amplify, so bring on a pair of self-powered PA cabs. Another $1.5k. Stand, seat, mixer, cables, pedals -- you easily can drop $6k into a keyboard rig, and still think of it as your "starter" setup.

Well, yeah, you can certainly drop some serious $$ on good instruments and the miscellanea you need to function; check out the prices we discuss above. At the same time, there are lots of folks who buy pricey digital pianos, thinking they'll learn how to play, but who then discover it ain't as easy as the salesperson said it would be. After all, you need to coordinate 6+ fingers to play diff notes at the same time or against each other; some folks can do so intuitively (we call them 'talented'), but others need to work at it--everyday, day after day--until they become proficient (Like John D. said, "The piano is just damn hard"). Many give up and look to recoup their investment, but the market for used DPs ain't that great, given the limited number of players. So guys like me step in and offer well below what they paid (and we know what they paid); sometimes they go for it, sometimes not. I have pretty much the same rig config Chuck has, but am only in for about $2000. But that's not to say there's anything wrong w/ Chuck's accounting. I'd love to have that Kronos--or a Nord Stage 2--but, well...

And you have to bring it all with you everywhere you go: gigs, rehearsals, etc. There is no "small" version.

Yep. You can go w/ a partial rig, but there will be things you can't do.

It takes me at least 20 minutes to set up, and another 20 minutes to break down. Not to mention a large-ish vehicle to haul it all around with. If it isn't fun, I won't be doing it for long.

Ditto, 'cept for the "won't be doing it for long" part. Given my advanced age and distaste for heavy lifting, if it doesn't sound like it will be fun, I'll pass.

Some big turn-offs to avoid?

- No ears for what others are playing. It's a band, not a bunch of guys with instruments in their hands.
- Insisting that I "be committed" and have no other music projects that could potentially compete. Yeah, right.
- Musical dictators. Unless you're paying me real $$$, which you're not.

I know a few other keyboard folks who are also proficient, and they tend to share similar perspectives.

What he said.

I also agree w/ just about everything John D. says--esp. since like him, I took those lessons early in life. From Sister Elena, who had never heard of the Beatles, Stones, etc. She knew about jazz, but didn't like us playing it in the practice rooms. She was big on Debussy, Bach, Chopin, etc. And she had a ruler to enforce it. Would you get uppity w/ a nun?

One item on John's list stands out:

Problem #6 - We want a challenge, background rock keyboards are not.

So you've got a good rock band w/ 2 guitarists who can really wail. Good for you; if you're playing somewhere near where I live, I'll stop by to hear you. But I won't be jumping in to play fills to enhance your sound.

There was a time when I did that. Some high school guys in the neighborhood had a band that practiced in the garage, and they were really good; when I heard them playing, I would stop by to listen. One day I noticed a Wurly, but no one was playing it. When they took a break, I asked if I could check it out, and next thing I know, the guitarist is asking me to play fills--basically triads, bass line optional (bet you didn't know how hard it is for a trained pianist to play w/ just 1 hand; it is, mostly because of the timing). I was 12 years old.

So now maybe you have some insight into how we think and, more importantly, why we won't just jump through hoops to be in your band. It's like a marriage where there's all the work and responsibility, but none of the good stuff. After a while--and the older you are, the shorter the time span is--you ask yourself, "what was I thinking?" Perhaps it's worthwhile to consider what someone suggested above: find yourself a newby, someone who maybe doesn't have the extensive chops, but who is willing to contribute, on a sustained basis, to fulfilling your fantasy. But as they grow in ability and musical taste, be ready to look for a replacement. Or be ready to compromise and incorporate their ideas into the band.

. After all, you need to coordinate 6+ fingers to play diff notes at the same time or against each other; some folks can do so intuitively (we call them 'talented'), but others need to work at it--everyday, day after day--until they become proficient (Like John D. said, "The piano is just damn hard").

yeah, that independence/coordination thing always impresses in good keyboardists. i mean it's impressive w drummers too, but they aren't dealing with harmony, melody, and basslines.

i mentioned seeing Joey DeFrancesco above and he impresses on MANY levels. he's playing amazing B3 stuff...kicking incredible basslines on pedals, comping hip chords, and running melodies in his right hand.....and then he occasionally reaches over to the Rhodes w his rt hand to sprinkle some of that in while keeping the bassline and B3 chords going. all this while messing w the speed of the Leslie and working a volume pedal!

but the one that really blew me away.... they're a few minutes into a tune, he's just soloed on B3 and now he picks up a trumpet and plays some very hip stuff w beautiful tone while he's still comping chords and kicking bass!!!!

how does a human being do that???? amazing.

how does a human being do that???? amazing.

You commit everything but the stuff you're improvising to muscle memory. This takes time. Lots of time.

Each chord shape, bass line "subsection", etc, needs to be on full auto if you're going to be any good. This also means that we learn how to do high-level harmonic analysis while playing, so that we can, for example, recognize transposed ii-V-I sections in a tune to engage the automatic bass line muscle memory for that group of changes.

Wes

how does a human being do that???? amazing.

You commit everything but the stuff you're improvising to muscle memory. This takes time. Lots of time.
Wes

Yep, just like any instrument if you're going to master it...except there's a lot more going on with a keyboard. All parts of the music can be played if there wasn't another member in the band. Rhythm, chords, and melody...not to mention counter-melody and harmonies.

That's why they don't really need a band, so it's going to take $$$ to produce interest.

We're really not all that hard to find. Actually, it's kinda hard to miss us. The first giveaway is that big ole B3, the one that weighs in at a hefty 310 pounds. Then you have those two Leslies at 140 pounds each. The full out version of the road rig will add a few amp heads, a sub, a synth and something large and loud to play it through. And then there's the van. Or maybe a trailer. Both are sorta tough to hide. Drat ... almost forgot the dollies, the ramp and the ROK's, plus a few over-sized work boxes crammed with cables, mic's, stomps, stands and other stuff.

If you seriously want serious keyboards, don't ask "do you have a portable?" Sure. Of course. And, as digital flatbeds go, it's a good one. My wife uses it to do the ironing. But if you want that real deal Jon Lord/Gregg Rolie sound, if you want Goldy McJohn and Booker T. up there on that stage with you, it's important to understand that Booker and Goldy and Gregg and Jon come with a whole bunch of very heavy, very large and very pricey baggage. And that baggage doesn't include a welterweight plastic replica propped on some flimsy, $39.95 mail order X-stand. The real deal means the real deal. Chiropractor included.

As others have noted, it's arguably fair to say we're able to choose most of our shots. Here's why. Without playing a note, before powering up the start and run motors, that old school Hammond rig is gonna make your guitar band more marketable. It's gonna make the venue operator gasp when the tubes and timber tonnage roll off the truck, through the door and onto the stage. It's shock and awe. And it's gonna set you apart. The crowd will sense it. So will you. No more sofa change gigs. You're now gonna demand a comma, a big one, in your checks. And it's likely you're gonna get it.

But I'm gonna have a few demands of my own. I'm gonna demand help loading, off-loading, loading and off-loading again. No more tossing the Strat in the back seat and peeling out the nanosecond the gig ends. You're either gonna spend a few of those extra bucks to rent a couple of strong backs for the night. Or you're gonna have to suck it up and commit to pitching in. Go ahead and grumble. But do it with a smile, please.

At the risk of sounding pushy, I'm also gonna demand players. Don't look to me to carry the band. When I'm not taking it to "church" (and I will, when needed), I'm mostly there to fill in the sound gaps, the thin spots. Give me (yeah, me) a bass player and a drummer who can kill it. Do this, and the three of us will give you a band that kills. We'll be rehearsing without you for a while. But don't worry. We'll let you know when the time comes for you and your gee-tar to join in. Same with the front man. Feel free to hang out. Just do it quietly. And, for the moment, keep out of the way. So, how's your ego holding up?

There's more, of course. Like your guitar-centric set list. It's either history, or you won't recognize it. And while you're still going to be out front chatting up the crowd, it's likely you're no longer calling the shots. Although I'm not there to carry the band, it's probable the band - the one you put together - will now be taking most of its stage and other cues from me. Just how it tends to work. Can you deal with it?

Most can't. Which is kinda why us keyboard types also tend to be the types who put bands together. Which might explain why we're so hard to find. Unless you're doing arena gigs, we're not joining your band. We've already got one of our own. Made up of the guys we likely stole from your band. Remember when you invited me to sit in on that rehearsal? The following day my phone was ringing. Your bass player and your drummer were calling. To suggest we ditch you and go off and do our own thing. Not always, of course. But it happens. A lot.

Hard to find? Maybe. But you're even harder to find. And odds are I've stopped looking. Which is probably why I'm so hard to find. Go figure.

Oh....thanks for reminding me of the biggest reason why I don't usually put up with a keyboard player.

This town's only big enough for one enormous ego.




I completely get all that and totally understand. You sound like you'd be worth putting up with, like you've been through several rodeos before, and I'm sure you deserve every penny you get.

Which is why I only hire when needed, so I can fire when not.

Thank You Tropical Hunch ... a breath of fresh air. Extremely well stated, factual and intelligent. Once again Ta very, very much. Stating facts and relating experiences well founded ... at least for me does not mean that you have an over inflated EGO or ego.

Live Well Die Well

Oh....thanks for reminding me of the biggest reason why I don't usually put up with a keyboard player.

This town's only big enough for one enormous ego.

Oh....thanks for reminding me of the biggest reason why I don't usually put up with a keyboard player.

This town's only big enough for one enormous ego.

Ain't it the truth, though?

A band is usually dominated by one or two strong personalities, and the other guys are tag along. Not every band...but almost every band since high school.

So someone who writes keyboard songs and someone who writes for guitar are going to always be debating the best key to play it in. I keep a few capos handy for just such occasions.

And I accepted a long long time ago that keyboard players were just a luxury I'd probably never have. It's magic when it works out though.

Any musician, whether he plays guitar, keyboards, or bashes drums, who can't be content to sometimes play back-up and sometimes take front and center needs to check his ego more carefully.

That's not necessarily true.

There is a reason an NFL team only has one quarterback during a game though there are 2 more standing on the sideline.

Most successful bands have a main soloist. It's not about ego but eco....as in "economics". To survive and thrive, a touring band needs to be lean these days. After some success they might add a member but by that time they have established a sound which got them there, and shouldn't be altered too much.

For example: Grand Funk Railroad.

Mark Farner was the first lead guitar player I tried to copy, mainly because his leads were pretty easy. He's not fantastically fast or complicated, but in a 3-piece band he filled the space between bass and drums. If you know their story, the manager had them making $350 a week even when they were one of the biggest in America. After a few successful albums & tours, they added a keyboard player who started giving Mark a break, taking some solo spaces, and it changed their sound. Some would say it was a better sound, but it wasn't the same band anymore.


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