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#277670 by MikeTalbot
Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:13 am
Well Mr. Tropical Hunch - you might try hiring a man as your bass player. Real bass men keep you silly people in line, it's rough, but somebody has to do it.

Talbot
#277717 by Carl Root
Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:02 pm
I started reading responses and quickly realized how insular a lot of guys are. Let me make a few observations.

Most guys want to play the music they grew up with, so your HS or college band worked because you all probably had the same roots. The older you get, the more age difference there is and the styles of top 40 hits obviously changes often.

Guitar players outnumber all other band instruments put together. They assume, correctly, that most music that bands usually cover is written by and for guitar players.

Keyboard players can go along for the ride, but those that actually enjoy playing and growing musically end up bored with music styles that consider them superfluous. Let's face it, most performing bands don't have keyboards.

Would it be fair to say that a greater percentage of keyboard players have more technical and theory training than guitar players? You want us to take a back seat while you pick songs that are easy to play? Blues is great . . how about a iii VI ii V I turnaround in Bb? There is plenty of music out there that is keyboard friendly, but from experience, we know that you won't want to play tunes written by keyboard players.

This is a hobby. If we were talking about auditioning for bands that played full time, and if you had to play different kinds of music to stay fully employed, the discussion would take us in a very different direction.
#278199 by Strings N Hammers
Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:02 am
Keyboard/singer here. I play a lot of 60's-90's rock, blues, and country.

In my experience most keyboard players approach their instrument as soloist, they are usually taught how to read music off a sheet. You don't add notes and you don't take notes away, you play the exact note written on the paper at the precise speed you're told to play it. This is a terrible way to approach an instrument, especially if you want to play with a band. You're little more than a well trained parrot rather than a true musician. I think the way guitarists are often taught to play chords and improvise by ear is far superior, at least for the type of music I play.

Also a keyboardist who wants to play in a band setting will often be tasked with playing any sound that a keyboard emits: horns, strings, synth sounds, etc. That's a skill one must learn almost entirely on their own, no one's going to teach you how to play that sax solo in that cover song and no one else in the band can play that necessary sax part because the drummer, guitarist, and bassist already have their jobs that are vital to the song.

Playing keys in a cover band can be really difficult and there's a lot of stuff one must learn alone. There's not going to be a YouTube video that teaches you how to play those strings in that led zeppelin song that your band wants to do, keep beating your head against the wall till you figure it out. You'll get there eventually.

As for this keyboard/guitar rivalry, if a guitarist wants to be the star (the one with the egos) they are welcome to it but they better have the chops to back it up. I may not know the first thing about a guitar, but I can sniff out an amateur from a great guitarist. Simply showing up with your instrument in hand hitting power chords is not enough to grant you frontman status. There's more than enough rock/blues/country/jazz songs where the keys are doing the leads to fill up an entire set list and if your leads are garbled or amateurish I'm going to suggest that in the interests of not embarrassing us we try another song where the keys are doing the leads instead.
Last edited by Strings N Hammers on Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
#278432 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:12 am
seniorblues wrote:Would it be fair to say that a greater percentage of keyboard players have more technical and theory training than guitar players?


fair and accurate


how about a iii VI ii V I turnaround in Bb?


Let me grab my capo....


This is a hobby.



For most, but not all. Anyone who plays regularly understands why keyboard players are not hard to find, but they are hard to hold.



.
#278509 by Gary D 33981
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:11 am
MikeTalbot wrote:Well Mr. Tropical Hunch - you might try hiring a man as your bass player. Real bass men keep you silly people in line, it's rough, but somebody has to do it.
Talbot


Or, a female bass player. With an electric upright. And an attitude. She whips everyone back into line. And she doesn't stare at her shoes.
#278511 by Gary D 33981
Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:38 am
Hammer and Strings wrote:In my experience most keyboard players approach their instrument as soloist ...

As a traditional B3 type (no synths, no electric pianos, just a big ole Hammond organ) less often tends to be better. But take that organ away and you immediately sense something is missing. Some of the best were and are minimalists who used the instrument to fill in the sonic gaps. The organ is the band's orchestral voice. It's there, but it's best when it isn't constantly in your face.
Hammer and Strings wrote: ... they are usually taught how to read music off a sheet. You play the exact note written on the paper at the precise speed you're told to play it. This is a terrible way to approach an instrument ... You're little more than a well trained parrot ... I think the way guitarists are often taught to play chords and improvise by ear is far superior ...

True 'dat. Not to use myself as a model for anything, but started with guitar (by ear) moved to bass when I got a great deal on a P-Bass (by ear, again), then made the jump to keys when asked if I wanted to haul away a B3/122 that was doing nothing but taking up storage room space. Don't read music. Instead, and because I was and still am a guitar player, I read what all the left hands are doing. Especially when I find myself in unfamiliar territory. Very few note readers - although there clearly are exceptions - are able to painlessly make the transition to the free-wheeling style of play a band demands. Those notes need to be in your head rather than on a sheet of paper. You are, effectively, still playing guitar. Except you're doing it on two sets of 61 keys attached to a big wooden box.
Hammer and Strings wrote:Playing keys in a cover band can be really difficult ...

Actually, it's excruciating. Especially when the cover band demands "just like the record." Often think there needs to be a special spot in hell reserved for these types. If you want "just like the record," save yourself the trouble and just play 'em the (bleeping) record.
Hammer and Strings wrote:... and there's a lot of stuff one must learn alone. There's not going to be a YouTube video that teaches you how to play those strings in that led zeppelin song that your band wants to do, keep beating your head against the wall till you figure it out. You'll get there eventually.

Unfortunately true. When "Foreplay" by Boston worked its way onto the set list, I seriously considered finding myself a sturdy rope and a wobbly chair. It's one of a handful of tunes where every note matters. Because the crowd most likely knows every last one of those notes and tends to feel cheated if you don't produce. Took weeks. But, to be fair, the guitar guys often need to do the same thing. Oddly, if Scholz opts to change it up, that's okay. He's Scholz. He's being creative. If I opt to change it up, I'm lazy. Confession: One of the few times I've ever employed a backing track. Another confession: So does Scholz. But don't tell anyone.
Hammer and Strings wrote:There's more than enough rock/blues/country/jazz songs where the keys are doing the leads to fill up an entire set list and if your leads are garbled or amateurish I'm going to suggest that in the interests of not embarrassing us we try another song where the keys are doing the leads instead.

Or sub out the guitar lead and make it a keyboard lead. For instance, I kick in the wah wah (yeah, I can run the Hammond through a wah box) and take the lead on Hendrix "Voodoo Child (Slight Return)." Not that the guitar can't handle it. Using the organ makes it different. Makes it our own. And it's sorta become a signature song.

You make many good points that do give some insight into the OP's original question "Why are keyboardists so hard to find?" Keyboardists are easy. Keyboardists who are a good musical fit for your band? Maybe not so easy. And yes, that's partially why some of us get to call our own shots as to where and when we'll plug ourselves into a band - or, more likely, put one together.
#278523 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:40 pm
tropicalhunch wrote:As a traditional B3 type (no synths, no electric pianos, just a big ole Hammond organ) less often tends to be better. But take that organ away and you immediately sense something is missing. Some of the best were and are minimalists who used the instrument to fill in the sonic gaps. The organ is the band's orchestral voice. It's there, but it's best when it isn't constantly in your face.



Amen, bro. Where you been all my life?


I produced an album in 2009 with one of the great lead guitarists in America and his band. It was already fantastic without a keyboard player but not "ready" in my opinion. Had to wait a couple of weeks for the funds to bring in a keyboard player to finish it. One of my songwriting partners and a few others close to the project kept asking why we needed that.

All I asked the keyboard player to do was support the mid-range tones of the rhythm guitar with a fender rhodes, beef up a couple of songs with an organ, and "answer" a few lines the lead guitar played during some verses. Found a couple of spots for solos during a refrain or turnaround.

Once everyone heard how much the keys added (almost without being noticed throughout the album) they all agreed that it put every song way over the top of what they thought it could be. It enhanced what the other instruments were doing by giving them a bed to lay on.

Few guitarists ever noticed the fender piano in Stairway to Heaven (Zep) but that would be a thin-sounding song that goes nowhere without it.
#278547 by Strings N Hammers
Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:52 am
Best advice I have for any new keyboardist is to play to what's required in a song, don't over play and don't let others drown you out if your part is equally vital to a song. Some of the best keyboardist I've ever known could lay low for an entire song, barely perceptible but when the time is right and they are called on to do impromptu solos they rain down fire.

Also I'll say this about playing keys in a band, a lot of the time especially in genres like rock and heavy metal a keyboardist is not necessary to complete a setlist. What usually happens when a new bands forms is that the guitar, bass, drums, and vocals form the band first, then the keyboardist is brought in as an after thought. This really blows because when you audition you have to play a bit of a mind reader as the other members of the band have been playing the same songs longer and have an idea what sound they want to hear. Also I think for this reason most bands aren't willing to take on newbie keyboardist, if you suck or just don't have the same experience as everyone else, then would rather do without you because they don't need you to form a band. You are not half as necessary as say a drummer.

This brings up another tip I would give newbie keyboardists: learn to sing. Vocals are a necessary component in most bands, that puts you in the band on the ground floor and the fact that you also play keys puts a premium on your value. Vocals are necessary, keyboardist are rare, combine the two and suddenly you're no longer some gadget nerd at the back of the stage. You are now Freddie Mercury: a mysterious force of nature. Don't be afraid to leave your keyboard, grab the mic, and strut in front of the stage like you own it. Honestly what you're playing a lot of the time isn't all that important and it's all about putting on a show anyways. Thanks for showing all us lame piano players how it done, Mr Mercury. Rip.
#281439 by Gary D 33981
Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:55 am
yod wrote: Amen, bro. Where you been all my life? I produced an album in 2009 with one of the great lead guitarists in America and his band. It was already fantastic without a keyboard player but not "ready" in my opinion. Had to wait a couple of weeks for the funds to bring in a keyboard player to finish it.


Often pitch in on recordings via file sharing. Do it as a favor, no charge. The Hammond is set up to record direct through a Vent. If needed, feel free to contact me via Bandmix. The email address is in the video.
#282128 by Magilla66
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 am
Top ten reasons why good rock keyboardists are hard to find

10. Songs are selected by instrumentalists in the band that are not keyboardists
9. Most songs don't have keyboard parts laid out like guitarists or bassists have tab sheets
8. Arrangements for keys usually are in more guitar-friendly keys, and so, become rather boring (e.g., let's all play in G, D, E, or A)
7. Have you looked at the amount of gear we haul to gigs? I personally move 250-some lbs of equipment. Only drummers move more gear around.
6. Asking a keyboardist if they can reproduce classic tunes with intros to songs like Fly Like an Eagle, any Yes song, or layer like Paich and Porcaro, is like me asking you if you can pull off Jimi, Vai, Eddie, or Satch.
5. You're playing too loud, turn it down - is what I'm told more often than - hey, crank that sh*t!
4. What was the question again?
3. Keyboardists are sidemen, unless your name is Brubeck, Monk, Elton, or the like.
2. We don't get out much.
1. Does anybody really care what keyboard players think?

BONUS: we all just want to play guitar, because as Lukather said, "Chicks dig dudes that play guitar."
#282131 by Planetguy
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:33 pm
Magilla66 wrote:7. Have you looked at the amount of gear we haul to gigs? I personally move 250-some lbs of equipment. Only drummers move more gear around.


try hauling a vibraphone, a malletKAT, rack of sound modules, a cpl of gtrs/amps, elec mando (aka "itsy bitsy gtr"), percussion, and percussion table, etc.....i definitely win (no make that LOSE) that one with my drummer as to who hauls more stuff!

Image
#283670 by Strings N Hammers
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Magilla66 wrote:Top ten reasons why good rock keyboardists are hard to find

10. Songs are selected by instrumentalists in the band that are not keyboardists
9. Most songs don't have keyboard parts laid out like guitarists or bassists have tab sheets
8. Arrangements for keys usually are in more guitar-friendly keys, and so, become rather boring (e.g., let's all play in G, D, E, or A)
7. Have you looked at the amount of gear we haul to gigs? I personally move 250-some lbs of equipment. Only drummers move more gear around.
6. Asking a keyboardist if they can reproduce classic tunes with intros to songs like Fly Like an Eagle, any Yes song, or layer like Paich and Porcaro, is like me asking you if you can pull off Jimi, Vai, Eddie, or Satch.
5. You're playing too loud, turn it down - is what I'm told more often than - hey, crank that sh*t!
4. What was the question again?
3. Keyboardists are sidemen, unless your name is Brubeck, Monk, Elton, or the like.
2. We don't get out much.
1. Does anybody really care what keyboard players think?

BONUS: we all just want to play guitar, because as Lukather said, "Chicks dig dudes that play guitar."


I relate to alot of this stuff. Can't tell you guys how many times I've joined a cover band that said they really needed a keyboardist then you get their setlist and realize that only 10 of 50 songs has any real keys in it.. The band will tell you they want you to be creative, add keys and wild licks where there are none but don't listen to them, that's a rookie mistake. What they really mean is don't be noticed too much (play light strings, they'll think it sounds awesome). Not that this applies to all genres, keys are easier to fit into blues, jazz, and country.

Anyhow in many genres keyboardist are sidemen and you just gotta be cool with that if it's the music you want to play. To play keys successfully in many music genres you just gotta be the type of guy who is cool with holding down 2 keys for 10 measures because that's what makes the song sound good. At the same time most gigging bands will want you to be every bit as competent at soloing as the lead guitarist, though you'll really only get called on 25% of the time.

These have just been my anecdotal experiences, I don't claim to be a know it all or anything.

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