United States

Monti /Paperdog...and in this corner..weighing in at....

Proof? I didn't see your CD at my local record store , never heard of you in my life... and I don't see you topping charts on the radio, nor do I see any posters of your upcoming shows.

lol... ok... number one: Who goes to record stores anymore? Have you even research the declining sales of CDs of the past few years!? And most record stores are DEAD...

I confess, I haven't been in a record store for a while, which is a guarantee I have not done the research there... Enter the new and improved outlets for Music distribution ...AKA online...AKA "virtual" record stores... Surely you knew it would lead to this All things being updated and equal... IThere is no marketing blitz that told me about your new CD. (Actually I found out about it on this site , where BIG Dogs dont play...Who woulda thought!?)

Two: So music that's not topping charts on the increasingly outdated mainstream American radio stations means a musician's not world class? Where have you been the past few years!?

I have been tied to my own computer... No, seriously, I'm tied up...call for help please... ... Joking aside, in the absence of Mainstream radio, How did Dr Dre do it, Eminem? How does Christina Aguilar do it? How Does Obama do it? Answer: They Tour and make a Physical Presence... In fact, if you go to any of those shows, they give you "insider" knick-knacks and info (you cant otherwise find on the net) and that's how they sustain /grow fan base. Its actually a new preisthood reborn in the entertainment industry. You said so yourself in a manner of speaking when you pointed out that world class acts exist outside of radio...

Three: World class acts? By your skewed standards, thousands of REAL world class artists wouldn't fit your criteria.
How do you know what my criteria is? Skewed, you say... ? LOL... I'm an artist, and not somebody's lounge act for the Asian internet. What exactly do you know about art?

Three: as for not seeing my posters... YOU ARE NOT MY TARGET AUDIENCE.

Then you are not necessarily a world class entertainer. World class entertainers have something for "Everybody" ...and no, they dont compromise or diminish themselves in the process. They are simply disciplined enough to create a broader selection, for a broader palatte/ wider audience base. Now I'm not saying you aren't a "class act". But I am saying, if you aren't making a presence, and if you limit your target, then according to my skewed perspective, you're just standing in line for pay, like hundreds of other guys... Welcome to Las Vegas ..LOL! There's free drinks and dont forget to collect your complimentary roll of chips at the door. (And by definition, that aint world class)

Now I do not dispute that you can make 'some money' with your approach... But if producers are telling you that that is the way to go, they need to be fired! LOL!
Unlike YOD, I never said my way is the only way. I'm my own producer and I'm doing pretty decent...not where I want but I'm getting there.
And as for keeping it real? About as real as a three dollar bill. Thanks for giving me your insight.

Now I know why few of the Big Dogs never heard of this board. Interesting.

And never judge a big dog by its online avatar... YOu never really know who's watching....

As you read the article about 75K was spent on the actual song (still a rip-off but whatever)

But ONE MILLION DOLLARS was for MARKETING.

My point is this: would a label invest $1 million in a great musican but an okay marketer that brings about 3:1 to 10:1 ROI or to an ok singer but a GREAT marketer that can bring up to 20:1 ROI?

Note: I think the song sucked but that's neither here or there.

There are so many Mediocre artists.... but the reason why you hear them on the radio more than "better" artists, among other things, they had an IMAGE, and the labels found something they can market and EXPLOIT.


Now you get the point of the article?

It takes at least a million bucks to break any artist to the top of the charts since about the late 80s. Is that a new revelation for you?

The producer IS the Big Dog in most of those cases. Like I said way back in the beginning of the thread, at that level it is the producer choosing the artist, making their product, and then selling it to a label, if they don't have one themselves. IN other words, it is the producer and their industry contacts who decide which artist will get that "investment" in the first place. Again, thanks for supporting what I've said all along in this thread.

Marketing is a necessary function that every producer considers before deciding who they will produce, because as you've pointed out the obvious, it costs a lot of money to break an artist these days. Even the established stars need huge sums of money to grease the machine.






.

There are so many Mediocre artists.... but the reason why you hear them on the radio more than "better" artists, among other things, they had an IMAGE, and the labels found something they can market and EXPLOIT.

Now you get the point of the article?

It takes at least a million bucks to break any artist to the top of the charts since about the late 80s. Is that a new revelation for you?

The producer IS the Big Dog in most of those cases. Like I said way back in the beginning of the thread, at that level it is the producer choosing the artist, making their product, and then selling it to a label, if they don't have one themselves. IN other words, it is the producer and their industry contacts who decide which artist will get that "investment" in the first place. Again, thanks for supporting what I've said all along in this thread.

Marketing is a necessary function that every producer considers before deciding who they will produce, because as you've pointed out the obvious, it costs a lot of money to break an artist these days. Even the established stars need huge sums of money to grease the machine.

it's also getting the best
Producter
Song writers
Engineer / Mastering
Marketing house


Celine Dion had some success but her career realy took off when she started to get big name producers like David Foster and top song writers

Shania Twain career was little known until Mutt Lange started working with her

For BIG success in the music biz .. it's so much is about names .. who you've worked with and the success of that work.

Even without a huge marketing budget ... if a DJ sees a bunch of well known people(award winning, producter, song writer, eng.)that worked on the LP, it has a better chance of getting spun than an LP with a bunch of no-bodies on it.

The last LP I worked on (independently produced) but mastered by a well known Spanish artist (his wifes aunt). The artist I played for hired a guy to promote his CD through "radio submit". This hired guy has good contacts around the world with radio DJ's so he can get decent airplay ... the title song has tracked up to 15 in some countries and has been played in over 30 countries and it still getting played after 6 months

Will he get rich ... nope ... cause he didn't go all in

Then the bigger question-- to ALL of you-- is this:

What's your main motive for doing music? Money? Fame? Or actually for the love of the art?

Then it breaks down to what your definition of success and the costs of having it?

So your friend isn't rich--by YOUR standards. So what? Is he happy? Is he successful in HIS mind? Only HE can say... NOT you.

Heh. There's other reasons why good artists don't get as much "popularity" than the people you constantly (sic) hear and see.

Mainly--creative control over their music and the unwillingness to be sucked into losing their rights as artists and songwriters.

So we won't get rich--I know that's NOT my motive for doing music-- but chances are... we would still maintain control of our works.

Some of the responses here hark back to the excesses of the music business of the last three--or more-- decades...where making it "big time" or BUST was prevalent, I guess.

I see where you're at... and I shake my head because now I really understand where you're coming from... and even when I explicitly say there is no one way to achieve success in this business you didn't really hear that.

This is more likely due to the fact of POSSIBLY :

1. clinging to the idea of things might get back to the way they WERE. NOT gonna happen.

2. Downplaying the role of how the internet plays into all of this. While I am less than unknown in WA, I'm selling in the UK, Germany, other parts of the US, Spain and even a fan in RUSSIA. So the notion of needing to be known locally is no longer EXCLUSIVELY true. With the exception of yod, I never said to anybody else they were wrong.

Unfortunately that part doesn't get recognized much.

3. Downplaying the role of how the internet fits in getting information. If I hadn't heard actual
respected industry professional with my own two ears about the internet being a vital tool to gather information about music rights, production and such, I 'd believe you. I should say to the person who say that anybody can lie... I could say "maybe. Just look at what I'm reading in this thread."

In closing (as observing this is like casting pearls before swine), I will repeat my motto in reference to music business:

If anybody tells you there is just ONE way of doing things, be very wary

I will add to say:

If your definition of success is primarily material and monetarily based? Not worried about possibly signing away your rights and live like the obsolete rock star of the 80's? You can follow these guys.

If you want to be successful on YOUR terms, research the industry. Study it like your life depends on it ('cause it DOES) learn various ways you can do this on your own. Yeah, it may take longer. Yeah, it WILL be harder. But when you reach YOUR idea of success, at the end of the day the money and everything else will come. And the money will be ALL yours. Follow the path that works for YOU.

Yod you play in church man, come on,
get real, nobody's ever heard of you.


My answer to all your bullsh#t statements:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.


To know so much you know so little.

I don't need your help or want it,


It's the christian in you that makes you have
to judge evryone's motives.

Well the star players I'm talking about our living in Costa Rica
11 months out of the year and down south 1 month.

You ain't going to see them in church tho.

Whose your producer John Hagee?


Bwahahahahahahahaha

Your funny and a real big star that I'm so envious of
I didn't know it showed.

Then the bigger question-- to ALL of you-- is this:

What's your main motive for doing music? Money? Fame? Or actually for the love of the art?

Then it breaks down to what your definition of success and the costs of having it?

So your friend isn't rich--by YOUR standards. So what? Is he happy? Is he successful in HIS mind? Only HE can say... NOT you.

Heh. There's other reasons why good artists don't get as much "popularity" than the people you constantly (sic) hear and see.

Mainly--creative control over their music and the unwillingness to be sucked into losing their rights as artists and songwriters.

So we won't get rich--I know that's NOT my motive for doing music-- but chances are... we would still maintain control of our works.

Some of the responses here hark back to the excesses of the music business of the last three--or more-- decades...where making it "big time" or BUST was prevalent, I guess.

I see where you're at... and I shake my head because now I really understand where you're coming from... and even when I explicitly say there is no one way to achieve success in this business you didn't really hear that.

This is more likely due to the fact of POSSIBLY :

1. clinging to the idea of things might get back to the way they WERE. NOT gonna happen.

2. Downplaying the role of how the internet plays into all of this. While I am less than unknown in WA, I'm selling in the UK, Germany, other parts of the US, Spain and even a fan in RUSSIA. So the notion of needing to be known locally is no longer EXCLUSIVELY true. With the exception of yod, I never said to anybody else they were wrong.

Unfortunately that part doesn't get recognized much.

3. Downplaying the role of how the internet fits in getting information. If I hadn't heard actual
respected industry professional with my own two ears about the internet being a vital tool to gather information about music rights, production and such, I 'd believe you. I should say to the person who say that anybody can lie... I could say "maybe. Just look at what I'm reading in this thread."

In closing (as observing this is like casting pearls before swine), I will repeat my motto in reference to music business:

If anybody tells you there is just ONE way of doing things, be very wary

I will add to say:

If your definition of success is primarily material and monetarily based? Not worried about possibly signing away your rights and live like the obsolete rock star of the 80's? You can follow these guys.

If you want to be successful on YOUR terms, research the industry. Study it like your life depends on it ('cause it DOES) learn various ways you can do this on your own. Yeah, it may take longer. Yeah, it WILL be harder. But when you reach YOUR idea of success, at the end of the day the money and everything else will come. And the money will be ALL yours. Follow the path that works for YOU.

Well, at this juncture, best of luck to ya. Hope it works out, man...

Hey Monti ... if you're fine with playing music and doing it for the love of it .. then keep doing what you are doing .. I've got no beef with that.

The problem with the internet is monetizing your effert ... can't go on making little or no money forever. New gear will be needed, gas money, recording equipment ...

"So your friend isn't rich--by YOUR standards" ... got nothing to do with my standards. He has spent a considerable amount of money to get this CD out into the market, so if he doesn't make any money he won't be able to afford another CD ... it's simple math.

Is he happy ... I guess he is he got his music out there ... is he successful .. from talking to him ... yes & no. He thinks he has had good reviews but would have like better sales, he has over 5000 fans on FB but has sold under 500 CD's ... back to monetizing on the internet.

Things will never get back to the way they were ... unless you're known enough to touring Europe or playing live in some place like Mexico where people are not listening to free music with their earbuds plugged in all day .. and live music still has value.

This is one of the worst years I've seen for live music, I've only had 3 calls to play this year ... it's dead. Even festivals are shutting down this year .. 3 big fests just in my area have shut down ... well known artists are having a hard making ends meet ... I can't see how this is good for any musician out here ... you included

What I stated was if want to be successful (monetarily) you need to get the best of the best on that list. Take one off and you will be less succesful take 2 off even less ... and lets not forget about LUCK ... being at the right place, in front of the right person, with the right product.

Hell ... I was young once too, with high ideals like yours ... but I got tired of starving and sponging off of others ... and became a music whore ... like a fellow keyboard whore sez " How much does the gig pay"

Hey Monti ... if you're fine with playing music and doing it for the love of it .. then keep doing what you are doing .. I've got no beef with that.

The problem with the internet is monetizing your effert ... can't go on making little or no money forever. New gear will be needed, gas money, recording equipment ...

"So your friend isn't rich--by YOUR standards" ... got nothing to do with my standards. He has spent a considerable amount of money to get this CD out into the market, so if he doesn't make any money he won't be able to afford another CD ... it's simple math.

Is he happy ... I guess he is he got his music out there ... is he successful .. from talking to him ... yes & no. He thinks he has had good reviews but would have like better sales, he has over 5000 fans on FB but has sold under 500 CD's ... back to monetizing on the internet.

Things will never get back to the way they were ... unless you're known enough to touring Europe or playing live in some place like Mexico where people are not listening to free music with their earbuds plugged in all day .. and live music still has value.

This is one of the worst years I've seen for live music ... it's dead. Even festivals are shut downing this year .. 3 big fests just in my area have shut down ... well known artists are having a hard making ends meet ... I can't see how this is good for any musician out here ... you included

What I stated was if want to be successful (monetarily) you need to get the best of the best on that list. Take one off and you will be less succesful take 2 off even less ... and lets not forget about LUCK ... being at the right place, in front of the right person, with the right product.

Hell ... I was young once too, with high ideals like yours ... but I got tired of starving and sponging off of others ... and became a music whore

Well stated ! And of course, you are a veteran of the biz...

The slump in Live venues, I suspect is a result of a couple of things... 1) The general Economy overall...People just aren't feeling that festive with all the worries and such...they arent spending, for fear of getting fleeced by bills,etc. 2) I think the gamut of live acts has been played out. Its not always been about the music...Now, with all the tricks, said and done, its coming back to the music...at least until the next big wave hits...and i think artists are in the midst of adapting to that...so essentially they got nothing (for the time being), I don't believe that will last.

I could be wrong.

Yod you play in church man, come on,
get real, nobody's ever heard of you.


My answer to all your bullsh#t statements:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.


To know so much you know so little.

I don't need your help or want it,


It's the christian in you that makes you have
to judge evryone's motives.

Well the star players I'm talking about our living in Costa Rica
11 months out of the year and down south 1 month.

You ain't going to see them in church tho.

Whose your producer John Hagee?


Bwahahahahahahahaha

Your funny and a real big star that I'm so envious of
I didn't know it showed.

Hey Lynard, You sorry sack of used trojans... Why don't you go drop some acid and pretend you are a lizard in your back yard.

That's funny "Paper" ... I of course have him on IGNORE ... his rant's are a little over the top for me .. not even funny ... just sad

That's funny "Paper" ... I of course have him on IGNORE ... his rant's are a little over the top for me .. not even funny ... just sad

LOL I had him on ignore once...but changed it... Sometimes I rellish the opportunity to fry, bake flip, turn and serve him...with a spanking... LOL!

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.




Bwahahahahahahahaha

I just feel sorry for you, Leonard.


There is an answer to your problem, but you'll have to humble yourself to find it.

Then the bigger question--

If you want to be successful on YOUR terms, research the industry. Study it like your life depends on it ('cause it DOES) learn various ways you can do this on your own. Yeah, it may take longer. Yeah, it WILL be harder. But when you reach YOUR idea of success, at the end of the day the money and everything else will come. And the money will be ALL yours. Follow the path that works for YOU.[/i]

I'm still not sure what you're point is or was exactly, but all I've said is that having a great producer will put you on the fast track to success because they have the contacts an artist needs.

If someone wants to hire a producer, getting the right one can help your career advance a lot quicker than getting a CD on the cheap will.

In my opinion, this would be worth whatever it cost, if you want to launch a real and lasting music career quickly.

yod, please be advised, Lynard has informed me he has washed his hands of me for good, now, I could understand his feelings of me being a true adversary as his email to me stated, but to tell you the truth, I have not had no contact whatsoever with Lynard for weeks or months, have not been talking s*it about him on the boards, have not phoned the guy, nadda, and all of a sudden this guy tells me out of the blue I ain't a friend, and I should not use the term so liberally, but I'm thinking Lynard might have thought I was gossiping about him, but I was speaking of Matt, the dude that thinks so much of my music that he's recording me for free with a Firewire stick? my free recording session is coming soon with Matt, not Lynard, and I'm really stoked about it..love Lynard to death, but praying for his mental well-being might not be enough..

yod, please be advised, Lynard has informed me he has washed his hands of me for good, now, I could understand his feelings of me being a true adversary as his email to me stated, but to tell you the truth, I have not had no contact whatsoever with Lynard for weeks or months, have not been talking s*it about him on the boards, have not phoned the guy, nadda, and all of a sudden this guy tells me out of the blue I ain't a friend, and I should not use the term so liberally, but I'm thinking Lynard might have thought I was gossiping about him, but I was speaking of Matt, the dude that thinks so much of my music that he's recording me for free with a Firewire stick? my free recording session is coming soon with Matt, not Lynard, and I'm really stoked about it..love Lynard to death, but praying for his mental well-being might not be enough..

Dane . believe me... You aint losing anything here, except maybe a canker sore in the ass. From what you just described, He's back stabbing you. I called him on that months ago... and I don't even know the guy. My advice .. let his sorry ass go and move on to do what counts...Music on a firewire stick... and thank god you aint Lynard...cause to be a Lynard would suck. Rock on Dane !