United States

Actually, I DO think that numbers are important.

If a pharmaceutical co releases drugs that it knows are harmful, & they kill 1,000 ppl, that's worse than the guy who kills his neighbor over a dispute in the heat of the moment. The liability should be far higher for the co than the individual.

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I don't agree with preventative measures in law enforcement, other than to make the cost of the crimes higher. When you start preventative policing, you make everyone a potential criminal. We are not about that as a country, supposedly.

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The biggest problem with going global, is that there are not the procedures in place, world-wide, to make everything equal, & until it is, I want no part of a global economy.

We are never going to be able to compete with countries manufacturing things without the safety precautions that we require, & which are, we believe, a part of human rights. When other countries make things without having to spend the necessary monies on safety precautions, they can make things cheaper than we can. This is the main reason that ppl outsource American jobs, not because we charge too much for our services due to American worker greed. I don't want to support unfair business practices either at home or abroad. Don't those ppl deserve the same safety at their jobs that we get, here? Well, they aren't getting it. Nor do they get vacation pay, insurance, sick leave, maternity leave, etc etc etc, in the third world.

If being a "player" in the global economy means bypassing things of this sort, then we are ALWAYS going to be the underdog, & we will not be working, as a nation.

That, sir, is just wrong on so many levels.

....while scumbags like Bernard Madoff is allowed to rip off 50 billion over a period of decades with impunity, this is just one example there are countless corporate misdeeds which effected the lives of thousands of Americans, Enron, World Com the Keating five provide more examples.

Madoff's going to end up in jail. Ken Lay killed himself. Jeffry Skilling is in prison...

These people do not "get away" with anything.

They are no different from any other criminal. They're collateral damage is just bigger.

You want preventative law enforcement. But you can't legislate morality. You can try, but it always fails.

It will always fail in this country, because America was founded on the concept of freedom. If you try and regulate people and legislate morality, you impose on their freedoms. American's try to balance these two ideals which are at opposite ends of the spectrum. But at their heart, Americans value freedom above all else. Which is why legislating morality will always fail.

CF, Nobody is advocating to legislate morality, I like you think it would be an exercise in futility, what I'm referring to is to observe and enforce business regulations already in place that for some odd reason get ignored or bypassed by corporations with ease while the average citizen get punished as everybody should when breaking the law.

As I mentioned in my post the system has been corrupted by lobbyists in favor of corporate America at the expense of consumers.

I'm in favor of capitalism but I do object to predatory capitalism, prices should go up and down based on natural supply and demand but when supply and demand is artificially controlled by greed and corruption and not by natural causes then free market is no longer free.

Yes Madoff and other who got caught and will get punished but that's only a fraction of corporations breaking the rules, most of them go unpunished thanks to corrupt politicians and enforcement agencies.

Madoff is a case and point, he was exposed a decade ago but nothing was done to investigate and stop this crook along with others engaged in dishonest business practices.

We're not talking about preventive intervention here; we're talking about well documented cases which were ignored.

Again systems and regulations are just as efficient as the people enforcing them.

We are never going to be able to compete with countries manufacturing things without the safety precautions that we require, & which are, we believe, a part of human rights. When other countries make things without having to spend the necessary monies on safety precautions, they can make things cheaper than we can.

Also other countries don't have the same controls on pollution that we have, so they just dump the hazardous wastes wherever they want and you know where this is leading. Case in point: tubes for our amps are made everywhere but here because the waste from making them is too costly to properly dispose of for U.S. companies to compete with their prices. Are we, as musicians, willing to quit using tube amps because of this? I think not.

What an interesting discussion. Like Chippy I'm a Brit I was exported here for work. Married a yank and got stuck...but that's another story.
Going back to the original post BP is actually a dutch company....go figure.
I'm an engineer, worked most my life designing production lines, robotics and material handling systems for the automotive, defense and aerospace industries. I've been laid off 3 times in the past 10 years because of market fluctuations and short term management decisions based on quarterly returns for stock dividend payments and executive bonuses.
From my position the primary cause for the position of our economy is simply quarterly greed.
One of the problems with industry these days is it is global,it's too late to complain about foreign competition. Because of partnerships ,offshore investments,offshore markets,offshore production facilities etc. I don't think there's a fortune 500 company you can identify as solely American. It's always made me smirk a little when I hear someone say you should buy american. Realistically there's no such thing. Take a Chrysler car, pistons made by Karl Schmidt Unisia ( german) CV joints GKN Automotive (English) Bearings Koyo ( japanese) Fuel Injection and rails siemens automotive ( german) I could go on and on but it's an example of the global market,sure the added value goes into some American pockets but whose. GM makes cars with Toyota engines. assembled in Mexico and Spain. Here's a fun one. Ford just released the new Ford Fiesta in Europe that has a gas engine that does 65 mpg. But Ford executives sit in front of a congressional committee saying they need money to develop more economical vehicles.
Of the G7 nations America is the 6th for the average hourly wage for a skilled shop worker according to the NCMS ( national center for manufacturing sciences) England, France, Germany,Japan, Spain , Italy etc .etc, all pay higher hourly wages.So how are we so expensive for manufacturing production with such a weak dollar making it very cheap for other nations to buy American. In the same study the average CEO to shop floor pay ratio was 15 to 1 in the original G7 nations. Here America had the highest ratio 25 to 1. I wonder where the moneys going?
In America people talk about Freedom, but you only have the freedom to move within your allocated sphere of operation. Try getting a loan for a million bucks to see how you're controlled. As Chippy will tell you if you ask a Brit for ID he'll say "Huh?" Ask him his national insurance # ( english social security) and he won't know it. We're tracked and controlled by money, data,history etc.etc. Sure we can bitch and not get shot ( unless it was to the wife) but freedom of speech and opinion is and can only be based on information. Unfortunately I've learned that information is also controlled here.
A simple example is during the Iraq war I was back in England. On the TV it showed civilians injured from bombs, children being carried to ambulances. It dawned on me we saw no visual reporting on the war in the states. Oh we'll hear " nine people were killed to day" but no visual reports. Why...obviously someone does not want the same public response in the states as they experienced during the Vietnam war...so our free media for some reason is reporting in a format being dictated by the Government...why...they'll not get their FCC licencing renewed if they don't toe the line. So the owners protect their dollars and here we go again.It's just a small example of many areas where we believe we have one thing, a free press, but learn it's not as free and honest as we thought.
Don't get me wrong, I love America.It's been great to me, it doesn't rain all the bloody time for one thing. But our freedoms are truthfully to a degree perceived ( As they are in all countries),we are not free to do everything we want. Ask the Davidians. ( as a silly example)
Our market is still the largest in the world but we share it, we compete in the world market but it's not ours alone which it more or less was during the boom years after WW2. First it went to Japan, then Mexico, then Puerto Rico, then Taiwan, then China and now India looks like the new nirvana.
America like all the power nations in the past has reached the point that it has to change ,what those changes are I'm not bright enough to know. But I do know it cannot continue rewarding the individuals at the top of the food chain in the same way anymore. I think they've squeezed the piggy bank dry and sold it to the Chinese. Now that China more or less owns America we'll have to wait to see what happens.
Reading back over this I'm too shitty a writer to say the things I really wanted to, please take all I say as points for discussion and examples of some of the issues when we talk of imigration,overseas competition,freedom,jobs etc. Nothing these days is a simple yours and mine,black and white etc.etc.
Ok now someone rip me a new one...

Ok now someone rip me a new one...

What for? The corporations aren't through pounding your old one yet.

Well, it may be true that we have "too many chiefs," b/c Americans have this inflated view that everyone should be able to "get ahead." 25 to 1, eh? That's pretty high, for sure. Still, look at the ratio between lowest & highest management, in terms of actual pay & bennies, & I'd bet that you'll find that there's a huge difference there, as well.

...WE send them a clear message: "Fuk up and you're gone", then maybe....

The message needs to be that, but what you just advocated was, "Doesn't matter if you screw up or not, we're voting you out every four years".

People who do a good job need to be rewarded. People who do a bad job need to be fired. Voting against a person just because they're an incumbent is dumb. What if they did a great job?

Part of the problem is that everyone's got a different definition of what a "good job" is. That's why Busy got 8 years, despite half the U.S. population thinking he did a poor job.

I should have been more clear. We need to clean house first, and that means voting every single one of them out, whether they are doing a good job or not... Get rid of the old mentality, and the old ways.

THEN we can start voting the effective reps back in on re-elections. and maintain the 'fuk up and yer gone' mentality.. but first we have to get there.

but where will you find good prospects for the openings? If you go dem or repeub you'll just get more o the same. the indie ticket will quickly fill with the mobsters that are in the 2 parties now. Libertarian and green party candidates would be my choice... eventually the pirates would infest them as well!
VOTE FOR NOBODY IN OFFICE NOW/NO DEMS OR REPEB's!

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"putting your head in a hole means you left your ass is in the air"

If being a "player" in the global economy means bypassing things of this sort, then we are ALWAYS going to be the underdog, & we will not be working, as a nation.

That, sir, is just wrong on so many levels.

I think exactly the opposite. I think being a player in the global economy means taking our ideals and making sure that they have a voice in what emerges, and that we lobby to have our ideals implemented globally.

If we sit back and isolate ourselves then the world moves on without us, and very likely things like pollution control and worker safety get sacrificed for profitability. But if we're a player - if we cultivate influence and political capital and we use that - then we have some impact on those things.

The bottom line is that you cannot get what you want by sitting it out. You have to be an active participant. The global economy is here, and our world is getting smaller. We can't ignore it. So we have to participate. We have to make sure that the things that are important to us become important to the rest of the world.

The biggest problem with going global, is that there are not the procedures in place, world-wide, to make everything equal, & until it is, I want no part of a global economy.

You may not want any part in it, but it's here already. And the thing is - change doesn't happen over night. It's a process. You can't have "procedures in place" to make things "fair". You have to develop those things, piece by piece. It's not going to happen in one fell swoop.

You're not going to wake up tomorrow and see every country on equal footing, and then the race to profits begin. Doesn't work that way. The race is already underway, and so the work to create an equal playing field has to happen piecemeal, little by little, with the effort of people who want to see it happen.

This is why it is so important to elect politicians that share your viewpoint; to elect presidents who want to cultivate political capital instead of presidents who want to destroy our nation's image. Political capital is extremely important. It's what gives us leverage. It's what allows our president to say, "You know, I'm willing to lift a few tariffs on your important goods if you're willing to implement safer working conditions and higher wages."

So... withdrawing - not a solution. The only way you can ever ensure you get what you want in life, in society, and as a species, is to participate. To be an advocate. To get involved.

The way our world runs, how decisions get made and how things get done is certainly not ideal. But it's what we've got, so we have to figure out how to take advantage of it to get what we want.

I should have been more clear. We need to clean house first, and that means voting every single one of them out, whether they are doing a good job or not... Get rid of the old mentality, and the old ways.

THEN we can start voting the effective reps back in on re-elections. and maintain the 'fuk up and yer gone' mentality.. but first we have to get there.

Cleaning house sounds nice, but it still punishes people who do a good job, which I think is anti-American. One of America's founding principals is that you're rewarded for doing a good job. If you fire people who do a good job just because you want to "clean house" then you're killing yourself, because you're removing an advocate for your own ideas.

As an example: I work for local government. I have only been doing so for 3+ years. I have no ties to any "old boy" networks or old school thinking. I come to my job (software developer) with a completely fresh perspective - a problem solving perspective, because that's what I do. I solve problems.

I want to make my local government more efficient. I want us to make better use of our tax dollars. I want to examine everything with cold, analytical eye, devoid of emotional hangups, and figure out where we can improve. And I don't really care about people's job security - I care about doing the right thing for the taxpayers.

We have a problem in my local government that we're currently trying to fix. And when I say "we're" I mean a very few of us, many of whom come from technical backgrounds. We've been exposed to a problem that we think needs to be solved, that could create a lot of efficiency in the way we perform a particular business practice.

But we're blocked and locked into a bureaucratic tussle with some elected officials and longtime employees who have become complacent and comfortable with the status quo.

Would a house cleaning solve our problems? Nope. Because you'd be firing the advocates for change, like myself. Not a good idea.

In government, you need as many advocates for change and efficiency as you can get. Trying to solve this problem with a bazooka is not going to be nearly as effective as trying to solve it with a scalpel.

What we need to do is cutout the cancers, not blow away the entire living host.

I don't know what to tell you then...

You seem to have very solid ideas on what's "american" and the "american way" and I often have to wonder what that really means.

We were taught all these ideals in school. We praise Columbus, even made a national holiday after him, when in reality, he was a brutal thug who enslaved many native americans, forced them to mine gold, and chopped the hands off those who came up short on the quotas.

The country itself, and it's constitution was founded on the backs of slavery, but even moreso indentured servitude. The poor were exploited, not allowed to vote, kept in perpetual debt their entire lives. Did you know the original constitution only allowed wealthy land-owners to vote? This ensured that the rich, NOT the common man, ran this country. All this propaganda we've been taught our whole lives, about the american way, "by the people", is all a giant crock of shat. Always has been.

Sure, there's been great people, great deeds, and many rags-to-riches stories, but they are more the exception than the rule.

Getting back on topic -
You say you are in a minority of people who are looking to change things, and admittedly are helpless to initiate any change because of the old ways, and the people who won't bend.

How are we supposed to know, as voters, who really is doing a good job? We replaced Bush, with a "change" guy, who has effectively backtracked on more than 75% of his promises. So much for change.

The reality of it is, YOU say that as part of the government, that you are a guy trying to fix and change the system, but the average voter hears that from politicians about 10 times a day. The only way to solve the problem is to vote EVERYONE out, and start over, or we just keep getting the same shaft from the liars that we've been getting for 350+ years.

Every time we vote, we vote out the obvious poor performers, yet, a new poor-performer always manages to take their place.

I'm with Hayden, the major parties are both rife with corruption and cronyism. We need new parties, new representatives, and new ideas. The people should realize that this cycle just keeps repeating itself and simply voting for a dem when the reps screw up and voting for reps when the dem screws up just ain't working. It never did.

We replaced Bush, with a "change" guy, who has effectively backtracked on more than 75% of his promises. So much for change.

well let's see... more troops deployed. still in Iraq, more government and waaaay more spending, more cuts in education... yeah, there's real change for ya!


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"putting your head in a hole means you left your ass is in the air"

Just think. The oval office, where Obama designed his stimulus package, is the same office where Clinton got his package stimulated.

How are we supposed to know, as voters, who really is doing a good job?

The first thing is, you have to actually care. And a lot of people don't. They don't read their local papers, they don't talk to their local officials, they don't attend open meetings. So, for starters - care. And then get engaged in what's going on.

People have to be engaged to know what's going on. A lot of American's just sit back and figure that someone will tell them what's going on, but it doesn't work that way.

The second thing is - we're entering into a new era when it comes to information. One that is exciting and full of possibilities, because information can flow so freely and quickly now. The internet has a chance to change the landscape. Unfortunately, many local governments are not taking advantage of it, and many citizens are not either.

Again, people need to get engaged in the process. If you just check a box on a ballot and think that your job is over, and then spend the rest of your life grousing about the government and elected officials, you're as big of a part of the problem as anything. Being a good citizen is a lot more than checking a box once every 2 years.

With the internet and fast flow of information, and with the open meetings available to the public (that government HAS to provide) and with the availability of public officials (many of whom are happy to hear from their constituents) there's no reason citizens can't be attending meetings, getting involved, and then rapidly digesting that information on-line, in public forums and other internet-savvy locations.

As an example, I am not a resident of Florida, but somehow I got on congressman Vern Buchanan's e-mail list. His office seems to be much more adept at utilizing technology than his peers. I get e-mail alerts on all the important issues and votes that he's dealing with, and he sends out polls all the time, asking his people, "Are you opposed or in favor of this measure?" etc. I think that's a GREAT START to how our elected officials ought to be operating. After all - they work for US.


But in order for them to get that message we have to be engaged, as citizens. It's not enough to vote. We have to take matters into our own hands. We have to attend meetings, we have to read up on current events, we have to participate in the discussions, we have to get involved. If our local media outlets or national media outlets won't ask the questions we want to hear, or won't cover the story in an unbiased way, then we have to take the torch and do it ourselves. And with the internet - we can. At the local level we're going to start seeing that very soon - the next logical area for bloggers to infiltrate is local government.


But to make any sort of impact you have to be involved.

We replaced Bush, with a "change" guy, who has effectively backtracked on more than 75% of his promises. So much for change.

It's early. Give him a chance. He has to work against the machine of government. I can tell you first hand as a government employee - enacting change is not simple, because you have to fight everyone who is already entrenched in the system. I would love to be able to go to work and say, "Hey, there's a much better way to perform this task, so let's change it." But it's way harder to actually get that change put in motion.

You can't give up on the people who want to deliver change. You have to support them and give them time to try and make a difference.

The reality of it is, YOU say that as part of the government, that you are a guy trying to fix and change the system, but the average voter hears that from politicians about 10 times a day.

Yes, but what does the average voter do about it? They hear what politicians say, and then they go back to their homes, jobs and families and forget about it. They don't get engaged. They don't hold their elected officials accountable. They don't talk to other citizens, they don't try and form meetings and groups and get other citizens involved.

It takes two to tango. There's blame enough for everyone.

The only way to solve the problem is to vote EVERYONE out, and start over, or we just keep getting the same shaft from the liars that we've been getting for 350+ years.

And who are the people you're going to "start over" with? Who is going to step forward to take the place of the people you're kicking out?

I'll tell you who: ambitious people who are already politicians and liars. You'll end up replacing one bad politician with another.

I mean, let's forget the fact that a "house cleaning" is never going to happen anyway. It is not even remotely realistic, so let's just throw that idea out the window. Let's talk about real solutions, because they're the only ones that matter. Suppose you have a vacancy in local government. What are YOU, as a concerned citizen, going to do about it?

99.99999% of people are going to sit back and hope someone else runs for election.

That's not how change happens.

Change happens when citizens take the initiative.

Next time there's an election in your home town, for city council, for county commissioner, for whatever - do your research and figure out if you think someone needs to be replaced. And then run for the job. You don't have to spend a million bucks on a campaign. Just run a free campaign. Use the internet, use your friends, get help. Take up the torch. See what happens. See if YOU can make a difference.

Every time we vote, we vote out the obvious poor performers, yet, a new poor-performer always manages to take their place.

Doesn't always work that way. Sometimes we vote out good performers because the political party they are in is under fire. Sometimes we vote bad apples in simple because we vote "along party lines".

My wife voted one of our three best commissioners out of our local county government (my boss) because she didn't know him personally, didn't know how supportive of my job he was, but because she voted along party lines. When I told her she just voted out of office the strongest supporter of my work she was shocked and sorry.

Our two-party system is one of the biggest problems with our government. It polarizes the populace and keeps good ideas from bubbling up to the top, because only the party "platform" is what counts.

If I could change one thing about our government I'd change the party system. It's a big negative.

I'm with Hayden, the major parties are both rife with corruption and cronyism. We need new parties, new representatives, and new ideas. The people should realize that this cycle just keeps repeating itself and simply voting for a dem when the reps screw up and voting for reps when the dem screws up just ain't working. It never did.

We need no parties. Parties should be abolished. Because the reality is very few Americans are in 100% agreement with every policy in their "party".

Ideas are what should be talked about, not party platforms.

And even more important is the ability to make good decisions. The ability to SOLVE PROBLEMS and maintain personal integrity should be the two prerequisites of a public official. Unfortunately, you don't need any kind of formal education to get elected (most counties in America, for instance, you do not even specify a high school level education as a minimum prerequisite). You don't have to display and specific intelligence level to get elected.

I can personally attest to the lacking intelligence of local elected officials.

Our dumbest and least ethical (but most ambitious) citizens run for public office. Meanwhile our brightest citizens are doing civilian work, because that's where they feel they can make a real difference. And in most cases, that's true.

But that's my problem Colors-

We the people, have spoken. We don't want to be in Iraq, or Afghanistan. We have voiced those opinions for years. Obama won the election on that message alone.

We don't want warantless wiretappting
We don't want Wars of agression
We don't want to use torture
We want the war on drugs to end, legalize marajuana
We don't want 11tril of our tax money going to wealthy crooks called bankers.

ALL of these things the majority of america has agreed upon, and voiced, LOUDLY. As I said, Obama won the election on this platform.

The leaders in government have been made aware of what the people want, and have repeatedly done nothing. Nada, zero, zilch. In the end, they always tell us what we want to hear... yeah.. we're working on it.. change a-comin... etc.. blah blah... and they never do a damn thing, or when they do, there's so many loopholes and corporate handouts involved in the final legislation, that we oftentimes get even less that we had before they "fixed" the problem.

I'm just sick of it all. I held onto hope when Obama got elected, but he's just suckling on the political tit. He hasn't taken a stand on jack-crap, and it was made pretty damn clear exactly why he was elected.

I know someone said "give him a chance"... and I used to say that myself, when he first got into office and all the reps were bashing him on day 1. But, he's already proven that he either lied to us, or that he doesn't have the spine to do the job WE hired him for.

He's got time, and I remain hopeful, because really.. that's all any of us have is hope. Not much of it though...