United States

I am not in to surveys but there is no living to be made playing in San Diego (or southern California). The market is flooded with free musicians.

I am running into the same obstacle here as well. There are so many amateurs running around playing for free, the club owners, studios, and potential clients alike don't really care if it's good, just that it's FREE!! No disrespect to anyone on the board, but if you're simply playing for the small door tab, free drinks, etc, you're contributing to the demise of the professional musician.

Because there are people who make at least a portion of their money playing music, the torrent of "playing for the love of music" free musicians is directly impacting the bank accounts of guys like me. As far as working sessions at studios, I can't get work at some studios in the area because they have free players that come in that may lay down a tracks. It takes them about two hours to do (where I may knock it out in 20-30 minutes), and these "studio rat" player's won't accept any money because it "desecrates the integrity of music." (and yes, people have actually told me that before while trying to get out of paying me to record for them)

That's part of the salesperson aspect of session playing: making potential clients and studios understand is that they are saving money having a pro come in and lay down the track in a fraction of the time. Studio time is expensive. Proficient players could save a client money that they would've had to pay to the studio when they choose to bring in their friend's cousin's roomate's college buddy who has been playing for a year. Two hours of studio time will almost always be more expensive than one hour in the studio plus one hour for a professional session player. Even still, it is very hard to sell sessions for money when they are getting sessions for free, even if it costs additional studio time... I just don't understand why people want to pay more money for the same thing that they can get for less money!

There are always exceptions though when it comes to playing live gigs... Depending on the venue, the time of the year, and the date of the gig, playing for the door isn't that bad. For example, from late May through early September, on a Friday or Saturday night, playing the rooftop deck of a club brings can bring more than $1000 just from the door! Think about it: nice night, live music, cold drinks, personal networking... These are the reasons that people go out in the summer, and they gladly pay $10 - $20/head to get up to the roof. When the roof is so full that the bouncers are turning people away, and the crowd is digging your music while calling their friends to tell them about this band that's playing... Then, you know you're getting paid!!

Yes, some of the cats that play for free are legit. Some of them are playing for free to get their foot in the door instead of charging a competitive rate. Some of them play as good or better than anyone here on this board. I just hate that these musicians are to proud, or stubborn, or stupid to realize that they are taking up valuable space. They either need to start charging money for their efforts (and help stimulate local economy by doing so), or move over so that someone can step in and make some money for themselves and their city. I truly believe that if enough musicians across the country would stand up to these venues and tell them to keep their tablescraps, the venues would be forced to start paying decent money to the players again if they want live music in their establishments. I'm doubtful this will ever happen though; there are always the fools who "love playing music" enough that will never see that playing for free is hurting local economies because money isn't moving to support these local small businesses (let's face it -- that's what we are as musicians/bands). Also, playing for free is keeping talented players from making their living, contributing to poor credit, loss of property, loss of financial stability, and in some cases even loss of family! If we allow these freebie musicians to continue the stereotype of the "poor" musician (who works so hard to play everywhere around town... for free...), that's all that we will ever be.

Thanks for reading my vent.

#1 problem for band's today: Club Owners! "It is what it is"

I disagree. I think that the #1 problem for bands today are the other bands that play for little or no money. They are allowing the Club Owners (which are the #2 problem as I see it) to offer nothing except "exposure" and the door to play a 3 hour set. Exposure is only good with a packed house where EVERYONE is digging the music the entire time you're playing. Even then, I want to get paid!! Playing for a small crowd is like having rehearsal in a venue.

When I was just starting out you had to be GOOD to get a gigg. Even if you had a bunch of friends and follower's, if you sucked or were just ok, you didn't get booked! And if you did get booked, you got PAID!

I think that it should be like that again!! With all of the mediocre musicians/bands that are active right now, that would be a great way to let the talent rise to the top, so to speak. Clubs would be forced to pay for talent.

EVEYWHERE !

But ya know I am probably as much a part of the problem.
We'll play for donations.
We'll play for food.
We'll play for fun.
We'll play!
It's about the message. For NKF it has to be about the message.
So I'll just stand out here in the cold, and jam.

If you have a message that you are trying to get across, like you guys do, playing for the sake of getting your message out may be payment enough for you. I respect where you're coming from -- I was in a Christian metal band when I was younger, and we weren't concerned about the money at that time in our lives because we were sold out to get the gospel out there.

However, people change, and priorities shift. I commend you for playing to get your message out, but I also think that your talent is worth something too. You're music is good, and if I were in your band, message or not, I'd be getting paid! Christian record labels pay their people to play and share their message, so why shouldn't venues pay the Christian bands that come in to play their music and share their message of the gospel?... Just a thought , because you guys need to get paid for the music you do.

A friend (a Christian drummer) and I used to do sound gigs together. We did this one that was a big church putting on a show. They had some PA gear aimed more for speaking than concerts so we had to bring the big cabs and power amps and a lot of other gear and tie it into their system (more trouble than just setting up our PA). We spent about 3 hours getting it set up and doing the sound check and then another 2 hours for the show, and then a couple hours tearing it down and loading out. We made $500 for the show. The main band was from Oklahoma City and they just brought their own personal stage equipment for us to mic up, played about an hour, and got paid $3000 for the show. Churches will pay good money for a band, even if they do get kinda cheap on the sound guys.

I am not in to surveys but there is no living to be made playing in San Diego (or southern California). The market is flooded with free musicians.

BINGO. Guess what happens when you play for free. You'll always play for free. I've said this before ad nauseum (that's Latin meaning until you puke): PLEASE DON'T GIVE YOUR HARD WORK AWAY.

Isn't there a musicians union or something that can step in and stop this kind of thing? Or would that be unconstitutional?

I am not in to surveys but there is no living to be made playing in San Diego (or southern California). The market is flooded with free musicians.

BINGO. Guess what happens when you play for free. You'll always play for free. I've said this before ad nauseum (that's Latin meaning until you puke): PLEASE DON'T GIVE YOUR HARD WORK AWAY.

I absolutely agree. We do "play" instruments, but it is work, not play. When I work, I want to get paid! Show me the money!!!!! For some people, this is a shocking concept, but I believe it to be very basic. If I'm playing a live gig with a client of mine, and my client is simply playing for the door, I always make my payment arrangements clear before the show and expect payment before we play. I don't think it very fair to get ripped off because my clients choose to play for nothing.

Isn't there a musicians union or something that can step in and stop this kind of thing? Or would that be unconstitutional?

Yes, there is a fantastic musicians union (AFM), but they cannot guarantee that this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Like any labor union, they negotiate and mediate with vendors, workers, artists, venues, etc. Negotiations don't necessarily mean getting what you want though... Still, being part of the AFM has its advantages, and the dues are reasonable for most people. However, living paycheck to paycheck, almost any added expense is too much. If I were part of the musician's union, I would still watch my back and cover my butt while they would be helping me. After all, it's my music business and my money, not theirs.

If you want to check them out, they are at http://www.afm.org/.

I would not argue that what I do as a musician (well maybe not me in particular) is worthy of pay. I and the boys gratefull accept payment when offered. But for me. I would loose track of the reason I play if I demanded payment. I would be just another TV preacher, with my pockets full of others money on the highway to hell. (bastards )
That being said, If we were at the point where others were making money off what we play, well then that would be a horse of a different color.
You bet I would demand payment so that I could better support my family my mission and my church.
Does that make sense? Does to me.

Clubowners now are a different animal than what they used to be. Most of them could care less if a band is good, as long as they bring a crowd and play for cheap (they don't care if it's a BIG crowd, just a crowd). A lot of crappy bands have a following of their musically challenged friends who think they're the greatest thing since pockets on T-shirts. I know a lot of clubowners who don't even stick around once the band starts playing. They just look at the dollars the next day and judge the band by that. If they do get a good band in, they'll stick around and listen and have a good time and tell the band how good they are, but they won't pay them extra for it.
If one clubowner in any certain area would get the balls to only have the best bands and pay them well, they would see how much more money they could make that way, AND get the notoriety of being the best club in town. Oh, they'd need to do a lot on their own too, like working on the atmosphere of the place and getting the right wait staff and advertising, but in the end it would be a huge payoff. Look at any successful club and you'll see this is true.

I have asked this before. And I am asking again.

Does anyone really choose one "club" over another by the band that is playing there?

I mean, even when I would go to clubs, it was rare. And usually to see / hear a band. But I always considered myself being the odd man out.
Many of my friends / peers went to the "clubs" a lot. I dont think they even knew if a band would be there or which band was where, or cared for that matter.

Does anyone really choose one "club" over another by the band that is playing there?

Not anymore, it seems, but they used to. I remember getting calls every weekend from people (some I knew, some I didn't) asking where we would be playing, as I'm sure most of the local bands did too. But that was when every band that played the clubs was good and professional and put on a helluva show. Now people are so used to not knowing what to expect at a club that it isn't as high a priority as how good the drinks are, or how cheap, or where everbody else goes. 'Tis a sad world for musicians.

I would not argue that what I do as a musician (well maybe not me in particular) is worthy of pay. I and the boys gratefull accept payment when offered. But for me. I would loose track of the reason I play if I demanded payment. I would be just another TV preacher, with my pockets full of others money on the highway to hell. (bastards )
That being said, If we were at the point where others were making money off what we play, well then that would be a horse of a different color.
You bet I would demand payment so that I could better support my family my mission and my church.
Does that make sense? Does to me.

I respect what you're saying. When I play at churches, or other spiritual organizations, I don't demand payment the way that I would in a studio or playing at a club. Whatever higher power happens to be out there, I'll give the big guy a break on his wallet. I've found that churches that I've played at usually take up an offering for visiting musicians/bands for their time and expenses. The offering may be substantial or humble, but whatever they choose to give me always helps.

Now, as far as playing at clubs, bars, and studios, these venues are a different story. Even when I was younger and played in a Christian metal band, if we played a "secular" club or bar, we ensured that we would get paid. Yes, we were spreading the gospel, but even Christians have expenses; things like instrument maintenence, gas/travel expenses, and our time. Strings, cables, and batteries are inexpensive, but expenses nonetheless. Also, we recognized that our time was valuable, and we weren't going to waste our time to play a show for 10 people and have nothing to show for it.

Even now, when playing sessions for Christian acts/bands in the studio, the same applies. I'm a professional "sub-contractor" that the studio owner, producer, or engineer calls in to do a job. I have felt completely and utterly disrespected when the few "spiritual" artists tried to hide behind their religious ideals to get out of paying me. Not all Christian musicians are like this -- in fact, most are more than happy to pay for services rendered when you perform well. At the end of the day, though, the "holy rollers" and I either came to an agreement, or I had the engineer completely delete/remove any and all bass tracks that I laid down in their music due to nonpayment, and sent them packing straight on the highway to hell with their pockets full of their own cheap money (bastards ). I don't play around with money when I'm in the studio or playing a live gig at a regular club/venue. Its business -- nothing more, nothing less.

The way that I see it, musicians are service providers as we provide entertainment. Whatever the underlying message is (religious, political, etc), the entertainment factor comes across first because that is what makes people want to listen to what you are saying. First and foremost, they have to like your music! As a service provider, just like when a venue calls a plumber, carpenter, exterminator, sound guy, etc, I expect to receive payment for the services that I provide. Its not a greed, cocky, or ego thing... Its simply pay me for the services that I provide. That's not unreasonable.

Money is sure as hell my goal. BUT, there are not many rockers out there who believe that the flute is a rock instrument. I wanna do it all including composing. I want to play in a rock band...I wanna play in a chamber orchestra. I want a flute choir and a jazz combo. I must throw myself into this. I do have 3 paying music jobs that help put food on the table. That is why I can spread myself out there to get what I want. If you want to make money in the music business, you must do some volunteer work. It is so much cheaper than advertizing although it doesn't hurt to use both.
Plus, I find performing at " hole in the wall" venues are great ways to practice.

Money is sure as hell my goal.

Hell yeah!!

If you want to make money in the music business, you must do some volunteer work. It is so much cheaper than advertizing although it doesn't hurt to use both.

I agree with this statement for the "artist" or the "act," not necessarily for independent musicians playing sessions or one-off gigs. Although I do occasionally play for friends of mine for free or for what they feel like paying me (i.e: beer and pizza with the game on Wed night), this is rare and unusally last minute if they have a player that had to cancel for whatever the reason may be. Like you, I'm in it for the money. THEN, I'm in it for the music, or the message, or whatever else. This is business, just without a store front or big building.

Plus, I find performing at " hole in the wall" venues are great ways to practice.[/quote]

Plus, I find performing at " hole in the wall" venues are great ways to practice.

Absolutely! This is exactly what I tell my clients who are discouraged that 10 people showed up for a gig. "Don't worry bro, this is a paid rehearsal! We'll go out there and play as if there were 110 people out there." That seems to get them perked up a little.