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Thank you for this thread, I learned alot reading it. I'm glad this is Bandmix, and you guys know alot about music, instead of Politic-mix, because I disagree with most political threads here. (Yeah, I'm a liberal ). Anyway, I don't have anything to add constructive to it, I just wanted to let you know I appreciate it.

Thanks JA,

As a producer myself, if I'm going to use a Producer it has to be someone who knows what to do with a project once it's done. Yes, anyone can produce their own music, and I might even suggest that they do so on the their first 2 projects just so they'll appreciate why they should have hired a producer.

If an artist is not yet ready for prime time, it might be good to get some experience in the studio working with an engineer without a Producer. If you are ready for prime time, then it would be better to let someone whose life's work is making great records show you the ropes while you concentrate on your part. Even then, it's not always easy to get a great Producer involved in your project.



The 1st Tier Producers are in demand by major labels/artists but will find time to work with someone they believe is new and fresh (assuming someone is paying them well OR they have ownership in the project).

The 2nd Tier Producers are usually as hungry for a break as the artists they produce, and are more accessible. These are the people that indie labels use...and often the owners of indie labels themselves.

3rd Tier (local) producers require a little more focused study to make a decision on, because they might be an upcoming great....or they might be on an ego trip of control because they own some recording gear.


Many Producers specialize in a genre so you want to find someone who knows your genre and can show you a finished example of taking songs to the finish line.

If they have real-world contacts that can help you when you're done, that is the best person to use. Pay them what they ask because it will be an investment in your future.

Wouldn't it be better to spend 10-15k on something you are proud of and helps you launch a life-long career, instead of 2-5k on something that you have to make ANY excuses for that is only good for a booking demo?

If a CD is really good, people will buy it. Being a recording artist means you make recordings that people want to buy. If you think your songs are good and you have the talent, then you'll take the risk of investing in your future no matter what it costs or how long it takes.

Otherwise, not so much...

It's not a crime to play just for the fun of it. Just don't be bitter when someone with less talent made it because they were willing to take that risk and persevere.








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Wouldn't it be better to spend 10-15k on something you are proud of and helps you launch a life-long career, instead of 2-5k on something that you have to make ANY excuses for that is only good for a booking demo?

I resemble that remark... :LOL: Frankly I have invested the 5K ...cant do any more than that.. so I'm Phucked...

If a CD is really good, people will buy it. Being a recording artist means you make recordings that people want to buy. If you think your songs are good and you have the talent, then you'll take the risk of investing in your future no matter what it costs or how long it takes.

In spirit I agree... But I've come to discover that what is "really good" is so slave to the guys who matter...and just so were clear...Here is the ratio of CDs that the Guys who matter have to wade through to assess and decide whats really good:

are you ready ? here goes ----> 1 Producer per each 1,000,000,000,000.000,000 artists (I exaggerated)

My point being its ridiculous to spend the 15 grand when you face odds like this.. Its why we have so many schmucks in the biz now... Its literally impossible for superb talents to get noticed. They get overlooked every day.

It's not a crime to play just for the fun of it. Just don't be bitter when someone with less talent made it because they were willing to take that risk and persevere.

LOL! Its like a lottery... How does one hold contempt for the guys who merely got lucky and won the lottery... Yes they leveraged the odds...as you suggest. But that's where it became a numbers game and no longer about the music... If I get bitter Its not gonna be because a guy like that became successful...its gonna be because he was 'lucky AND it went to his head'... Those guys are intolerable and they don't last long.

"If you can't play it like your recording, you won't be around very long".

People want to hear what you recorded and what they originally heard already (your music).

You best be able to play it or you will find out why I say that.

I just found that out personally a couple of days ago and no one wants to hear why the keys player isn't in attendance etc., they just expect you to play what you already made. ("Suck it up jr bitch" and that's a literal translation.)

This is exactly why I like live style music creation..
It's mad easy to layer until the cows come home, but when you go to play it onstage you better have your sh*t together or else.

And the or else part is fing brutal, trust me.

"If you can't play it like your recording, you won't be around very long".

People want to hear what you recorded and what they originally heard already (your music).

You best be able to play it or you will find out why I say that.

I just found that out personally a couple of days ago and no one wants to hear why the keys player isn't in attendance etc., they just expect you to play what you already made. ("Suck it up jr bitch" and that's a literal translation.)

This is exactly why I like live style music creation..
It's mad easy to layer until the cows come home, but when you go to play it onstage you better have your sh*t together or else.

And the or else part is fing brutal, trust me.

True that ....

Buuuuuut..... There is a cool thing being done called "unplugged" performance... Clapton proved it well with an acoustic version of Layla

In the case of being a one man band... People might not totally dismiss a feller that brings a recorded version of his own music ,less vocal track or guitar, etc and then doing a digital + Live collaboration of his own work.... In fact, with proper lights, it could be rather amusing... (A polite way of calling it karaoke except you know the song better than anyone else...
I personally suspect that the way of "band" is slowly diminishing... It depends on the genre. Heavy metal wont fly...but folk could... Just like any other modern day job... Nobody wants to carry the weight of that type of responsibility anymore...Now, more than ever, many musicians operate like independant contractors.
'
In a small town, a weekly appearance at an open mic, (where you can promote a CD ) is starting to show promise. Its not grandiose big time Hollywood stardom...but you do get to know your audience...and build a fan base that way.

Fans are just another f word. lol

"just let them do what they do".

As for unplugged? I never met an acoustic guitar I could tolerate for too long.

WEhat's next the bandjo? lool

I resemble that remark... :LOL: Frankly I have invested the 5K ...cant do any more than that.. so I'm Phucked...

OK, I'm not saying that a great record can't be made for 5k. What I am saying is that it's worth spending whatever you have to spend to make a great record. For example, if you could hire Sir George Martin to produce you, then you'd be practically guaranteed that a label would sign that project before you were even done recording it.

If you spend 50k and it sounds amateur, then that is what you are. If you are the Beatles, you could pull off a 5k album because it's simply a recording of a great band playing great songs with a great performance.

Not likely that studio newbies can do that....but I suppose it's possible. Realistically, 5k gives you a demo. You can sell that demo at gigs as you're working towards a real broadcast-quality project.

My point being its ridiculous to spend the 15 grand when you face odds like this.. Its why we have so many schmucks in the biz now... Its literally impossible for superb talents to get noticed. They get overlooked every day.

I could not disagree more.

If you produce a broadcast-quality CD of a great band that is able to perform those songs live, it will sell. You can make 13k on sales of only 1,000 CDs (if those are original songs) and your studio time is now paid for and you're on the way to making real money as you sell more.

Most labels today are looking for a product they can remix and distribute. If a label with major distribution picks you up, then you will go from begging places to let you play, to people calling you to ask how much you charge.

But even if you want to go the long way (distributing yourself) there is a thin line between the very talented local band and the seriously talented touring band.

Your recordings are the determining factor.

LOL! Its like a lottery... How does one hold contempt for the guys who merely got lucky and won the lottery... Yes they leveraged the odds...as you suggest. But that's where it became a numbers game and no longer about the music... If I get bitter Its not gonna be because a guy like that became successful...its gonna be because he was 'lucky AND it went to his head'... Those guys are intolerable and they don't last long.

There will always be people who start with an advantage. As you mentioned, they don't last long so don't worry about them. It's not hard to produce a great album if you have a great producer. After that, it's a matter of reality setting in as you have to perform it live.

That is where most recording artists make it or break apart...selling their music at the end of a live show. If you do a good live show, people will buy your CD for a souvenir. If that CD is a great recording, they'll tell all their friends and buy the next one when it comes out, too.

If it sounds cheap, they'll wait to hear you live again first.

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If you have a good tune, it needs to be well mastered/produced to remain good.

If you have a sh*t tune, it can't be well produced into something great.
(I completely reject that idea.)

A sh*t sandwich still has sh*t in the middle, even if it's surrounded by bread.
5k/15k/500k it's still smelly in the middle cause it sucks, you just dressed it up.

Welcome to reality. Now you can go home sated.

PS: Not many people I know bother to buy a CD when it can be dl'ed off the internet. (shrugs) And what can't you get off the internet anyways?
Not bloody much these days..

>>>>?>?>?>???????



If you have a sh*t tune, it can't be well produced into something great.
(I completely reject that idea.)

but so many have already!?

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and some people seem to like lipstick on a pig


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PS: Not many people I know bother to buy a CD when it can be dl'ed off the internet. (shrugs) And what can't you get off the internet anyways?
Not bloody much these days..

That's easy to solve....don't put your songs up on the internet.

Ok, I get the lipstick on the pig..heard a new hardcore band the other night.
And they oinked.

I have to laugh, have you ever played somewhere and then found out later that someone bootlegged without your knowledge?

Plenty of people making money from bootlegs, including a friend of mine who records every sound check at a local well-known venue.

Security looks for him sometimes, but he always eludes them and his bootlegs sound great !!!

Also if you are into computers, if you even load up your music and don't let people download it, it's still easily downloaded just from that basic player.

You just have to know how to do it.

Thus anything on the internet can be downloaded at some point.
If you don't want to ever use the internet, I suppose that could work but isn't that like "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

Ok, I get the lipstick on the pig..heard a new hardcore band the other night.
And they oinked.

I have to laugh, have you ever played somewhere and then found out later that someone bootlegged without your knowledge?

Plenty of people making money from bootlegs, including a friend of mine who records every sound check at a local well-known venue.

Security looks for him sometimes, but he always eludes them and his bootlegs sound great !!!

Also if you are into computers, if you even load up your music and don't let people download it, it's still easily downloaded just from that basic player.

You just have to know how to do it.

Thus anything on the internet can be downloaded at some point.
If you don't want to ever use the internet, I suppose that could work but isn't that like "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

The way I see it,.,.,If anybody actually cared enough to nick my music, then I'd say I earned some free PR from the effort. As long is the work is properly registered (Copyright) Its down to picking the right battles... at the right time... I don't know of too many songs making the airwaves and windfall profits after they were stolen.

I am only creative dept, and I don't want to make those decisions.

If I had a tune I really liked and they "sampled" it, I might get upset.
It depends on the application/final product. I wanna hear something good, no garbage. Make sure you improve upon the original, that's doing it justice.

LOL The ultimate indignity is to have your artistic endeavor(s) stolen and performed badly.

(oh the shame..they killed that poor tune..)

I'd rather be shot..

Reminds be all the way back to that infamous stage in hell, remember?
Where you just can't tune that guitar at all and the crowd is waiting.... lol

Yes, I understand that conventional wisdom says you should put your music everywhere online. However, the music biz constantly changes making conventional wisdom obsolete quite often.

Grand Funk Railroad, at the height of their careers, were making about $350 a week each for performances and got zilch from record sales because everything was owned by someone else. All perfectly legal once they signed that (typically bad) record contract.

Not much has changed today. You don't really make serious money from internet sales unless most of it comes through your own "store". An artist doesn't make jack when someone else is selling their music through stores or online.

The best way to make money selling music these days seems to be if you, the artist, control all wholesale and retail selling.

With my latest CD, I am experimenting with a different approach by posting the songs for sale nowhere except my own website. Until I have a major distributor (and haven't been looking) the only place someone can get the newest music is at live shows, from stores who have bought wholesale from me, or from my website. It's more of an apple/mac store marketing strategy as opposed to a PC/walmart one. That approach wouldn't work if I weren't touring heavily, and in front of crowds constantly.

So far, I seem to be doing quite well on CD sales in these first 5 months already, even though I'm not selling in hundreds of stores or every music site online like when I was on a major distributed label. The overall amount of sales is much smaller than previous projects but since it's 100% mine, I'm doing much better with smaller numbers overall. There are still lots of fans who don't know I have a new CD, so I will do some marketing/advertising as soon as I can get time off from touring. Maybe.

After I've toured this project for a while and sold it at all the places I play, then it would be prudent to make it available everywhere digitally. If someone goes through the work of illegally downloading it then, they won't find as big a market for their trouble. In the meantime, if my music shows up for sale somewhere, I'll know that they have stolen it and can shut them down with threat of legal action. Already had to do that a couple of times.

Even though conventional wisdom says you should put your music everywhere possible, there is a reasonable strategy for not doing so in the case of an artist with an established fan base. Finding a niche market that you can serve is easier, and perhaps better, than taking on the whole world at once.

It's called narrow-marketing and I learned it from Jerry Abbott, producer (and father) of Pantera.

Yes, I understand that conventional wisdom says you should put your music everywhere online. However, the music biz constantly changes making conventional wisdom obsolete quite often.

Grand Funk Railroad, at the height of their careers, were making about $350 a week each for performances and got zilch from record sales because everything was owned by someone else. All perfectly legal once they signed that (typically bad) record contract.

Not much has changed today. You don't really make serious money from internet sales unless most of it comes through your own "store". An artist doesn't make jack when someone else is selling their music through stores or online.

The best way to make money selling music these days seems to be if you, the artist, control all wholesale and retail selling.

With my latest CD, I am experimenting with a different approach by posting the songs for sale nowhere except my own website. Until I have a major distributor (and haven't been looking) the only place someone can get the newest music is at live shows, from stores who have bought wholesale from me, or from my website. It's more of an apple/mac store marketing strategy as opposed to a PC/walmart one. That approach wouldn't work if I weren't touring heavily, and in front of crowds constantly.

So far, I seem to be doing quite well on CD sales in these first 5 months already, even though I'm not selling in hundreds of stores or every music site online like when I was on a major distributed label. The overall amount of sales is much smaller than previous projects but since it's 100% mine, I'm doing much better with smaller numbers overall. There are still lots of fans who don't know I have a new CD, so I will do some marketing/advertising as soon as I can get time off from touring. Maybe.

After I've toured this project for a while and sold it at all the places I play, then it would be prudent to make it available everywhere digitally. If someone goes through the work of illegally downloading it then, they won't find as big a market for their trouble. In the meantime, if my music shows up for sale somewhere, I'll know that they have stolen it and can shut them down with threat of legal action. Already had to do that a couple of times.

Even though conventional wisdom says you should put your music everywhere possible, there is a reasonable strategy for not doing so in the case of an artist with an established fan base. Finding a niche market that you can serve is easier, and perhaps better, than taking on the whole world at once.

It's called narrow-marketing and I learned it from Jerry Abbott, producer (and father) of Pantera.

All the strategies you have described here seem rather overwhelming. In fact, its prolly why I wont push my work very hard...just seems almost impossible to get rewarded for the effort. (The music is the easy part...I'm talking about the promotion of it).

This parallels other business models... Often an Entrepreneur spends more time "running his business" instead of focusing on the the production of the actual thing that "makes" his business. Its actually a very common mistake and it usually explains the short self-life, which many "going concerns" experience.

Seems to me, the only thing the artist should ever have to worry about is the art and the presentation of the art (Which Scott pointed out as key). All the rest of that nonsense...well Who can ya trust anymore... ? I personally have no problem sharing the wealth with skilled, above-board players in the game...

My current plan is to punch out about 100 copies of a "broadcast quality" CD and basically give them away to various venues in town...for their lunch crowds to hear over the PA. I figure that if I don't get any phone calls, its prolly cause the music sucked for them.... I can accept that as I will then try different efforts to improve my music.. But The silver lining for me is the knowledge that I wont have dumped a crap load of money into a dead horse.

In your case YOD, it sounds like you have established the market of willing buyers , who like your work... Which I think is awesome...

That's a wise strategy for starters, Dog, and your music is good so you'll get more contacts from those places as you go. Your approach is start small and let it grow, and it will if you are diligent and patient. If you didn't believe in your songs and ability, you wouldn't be investing in it at all, would ya?

Since this is a thread about producers, I will repeat that spending a few thousand more on a (real) Producer could have advanced your career farther and faster than the strictly DIY approach to save cash.

The right Producer can even make a "dead horse" live again. I think you'll have a good product that represents you and sells well at concerts. But had you used the right Producer, you'd be negotiating opportunities he helped you get when he heard how good your CD ended up being.